Clenton talks about his experience with accessing equipment

We call OK, there we go. Um, yeah, so would you like to tell me a little bit about how equipment helps you live your life? Um Do I need to introduce myself or? Yeah, you can do if you want. You can do a little introduction, definitely. um, so, um

Hello, my name's Clintonton Vargason. um I'm a disabled person, er, a wheelchair user, um, someone who has spent my life, um, advocating for equality, inclusion and and co-production in health and social care, um. I, I would say um

Uh, I, when we talk about equipment, equipment for, uh, means to me an aid to independent living, um, and that's what equipment, er, er, should do to enable me to live, uh, uh, a life, and I include in that assistant technology, assistive technology, um. Uh, uh, um, And equipment aren't just. And nice to have, if that makes er er sense, um, they are fundamental enablers um for

Uh, dignity, choice, control in my life and the lives of so many others, when we talk about equipment, and for me equipment is, um, isn't about convenience, it's about independence and participation. That's how I view um. Uh equipment and I would say, um

My wheelchair isn't just a chair. Um, it's a mobility, it's my access, it's my freedom. Uh, and without it, the world would shrink

It'd be a smaller, smaller place for me to access. It would just be my house, you know, um, uh, to access. So beyond my wheelchair, there are a range of

Assistive technology that helps and supports me, uh, to engage fully with the world, uh and um for me, um, That's um. You know, like voice recognition software. I use a lot of that because of my dyslexia and my er um but which allows me to write emails, draught reports, um even engage in what I call creative thinking using mind mapping uh uh software to er um

To er to help me get my thoughts out. Um, also, um. Smart home technology, um, for me has been a game changer

um and what I mean by that, er, I can now close my er curtains, er, I can, uh, turn on the lights. I can, um, uh, even answer, you know, my front door without needing assistance, you know, um, which uh helps me, you know, um, through my, um, to make me feel more independent. Uh, makes me feel more confident and safe, if that, er, um, makes sense also, um

It's um if we think about my smart, smart door uh system, it means I can, you know, I can see who's there. I can communicate with visitors and ensure that, like I said, I feel safe. Uh and it all done through my er er phone or my um tablet, uh uh you know, that's part of er er um equipment

Also, I would say. I've got automated um shower system. In, in, in, in my home that um um enables me to turn

You know, the temperature er er er down, it's got er helps me um you know, trans transfer onto my chair. I've got lots of different equipment that enables me, well I would say, to have a little bit of privacy with um you know, and dignity without um even though I I do need support, but those privacy areas of, you know. Personal care and cleaning and all that

I've got control over that, you know, um, er, er, that would, um, also some equipment, um, other equipment I have is, you know, electric bed, you know, profiling bed, that enables me um to have a um. A good good sleep and um you know um uh cos I have to have my feet up in uh in the air causes a lack of circulation, uh and it profiles at me it's um. It's It gives me Uh um It helps avoid pain er er er er as well, and it and it makes that daily living more manageable, you know, um, if that makes sense, cos I've got it at a touch of a, uh, uh, uh, you know, um

But That's brilliant. Thank you for sharing. And some of the things that I picked up on there is that all of, all of this equipment and the impact that it has on your life, like you're feeling safe, you're feeling independent, um, helping with pain and things like that

What, what kind of, why are those things important? Like, hearing you speak about it, to me, it's understandable that those things are important, because it's all things, it's like a human right, isn't it, to feel safe, to feel independent, and To not feel pain, but what kind of impact does that have on your life, being able to live a life where you are independent and you are safe and, I, I, I, I definitely, um, you touched on, er, um, human rights for, for me, the right equip equipment, er, isn't just a function, if that makes, uh, uh, it is about human rights. It allows me to work, it allows me to contribute, socialise, uh and. Uh, thrive on my own terms, you know, uh, I'm not, um, without it, um, most people take, uh, things for granted

You know, for me, these are just the, the basic building blocks that I need to be included in society, that er er makes sense, that's why for me, um. Um, when I have the, um, right support, I'm not just overcoming, um, anything. I'm, I'm just living my life like anyone else

And, um, and it's and I think what you're trying to do with the stories they're really important to tell those unseen stories, you know, uh and for me, equipment isn't just about a piece of kit. You know, uh, it's, it's enables me to do the things that most people take for for er granted and feel, er, er, empowered, uplifted to take some control of my life. Thank you, Conton

And talking about having access to all these different bits of Equipment that have such a fundamental impact on how you live your life every day. What is there any challenges that you've had to face or anything that you've encountered in terms of getting access to these bits of equipment and, Things that you're using in your life to, to live from day to day. Yeah, if I was gonna be honest, um, one of the biggest issues for er trying to access er er the equipment is getting the right equipment, not, is not always straightforward that you would think

Um, it should be straight forward. Some of the things that um the knowledge of the. Uh, uh, of people knowing about the latest, uh, equipment, cos one of the biggest things that I struggle with, I don't want my home, and I use the word home

Resembling a hospital ward. You know, uh, I want it blend blended in aesthetically that it's part of that everyday um feel, if that makes sense and some of the um some of the um equipment, you're like, why does it have to look like a hospital? If that if that makes er er uh sense. But also the amount of administration or er the battle with red tape

To get um um you know, just to get the basic things that you need to live is not always that simple, even though the system and people say it's simple to, to access, you know, um um I have um like nobody told me like with my wheelchair, about, you know, um I need maintenance of my wheelchair. Brake telling me I can get a a a a a wheelchair, but if it breaks down, you know, cos I've got a a powered wheelchair. You know, I, I have to do all that myself, you know, so those are some of the er er the the um the basics

Other challenging er things are delays in what they call assessments, you know, to have, you know, there have been times when I've needed a new, new equipment or repairs of equipment, um, but the assessment process. It's too, you know, too slow, and will do, if that makes sense. And for me, it just, um, if I said imagine needing a wheelchair for mobility, but waiting weeks or months for someone to approve it

That's the reality of many disabled people who have physical disabilities. You know, um, also some of the challenges is, I would say, um, postcode lottery. Uh, and what I mean by that, um, to access equipment shouldn't depend on where you live

Um, for me, it, um, yeah, in the UK and, um, listening to other, uh, disabled people, different local authorities and NHS authorities, you know, NHS services, often, um. Uh offer different levels of provision. And some of er, some are more proactive, uh and, and some aren't

Others make you jump through endless hoops to get what I call the basics of, you know, human rights er er issue that others just take for granted, but also. Some of the equipment, I would say, lack of co-production in the design. Um, and supply, um, uh, uh, too often equipment is chosen for me as a disabled person, rather than with me

You know, um, er, someone's making a decision how I should live or my style of, you know, might not fit in into their preconceived idea of that ideal disabled person, so one size fits all. You know, and I, um, hopefully break that stereotype, you know, um, of, um, of, of that also, um. Uh, understanding what, uh, interdependency

Often more people talk about doing more for yourself, and it's not necessarily doing more for yourself, cause none of us are independent. And what I mean by that, we all need someone in our lives who will have skills and knowledge that will help and support us to live an independent life. You know, so, um, that, um, is in sometimes, um, I know for um

For some, er er when we have to, er if we don't meet the financial criteria. There's a cost barrier to some of the er er equipment that I need. Um, and that can, er, and not necessarily met in personal budgets or direct payments, um, you know, uh, and it, it, it means that, um, to give us choice, but sometimes it doesn't stretch enough to give us, you know, real choice and control, you know, cause it's financially based and um we're in a time where finance, uh, you know, is

Well, we're being told, especially for the most marginalised people in society, it's, you know, cost, and they're looking about cost savings. So, you know, we can feel like a um a number, but also there's a limited access to some of the um smart um home solutions, you know, many smart technology like um automated door openers. Um, or curtain closers, they're not necessarily on

As a, you know, uh as a um. Uh, uh, a support technology to people, you know, and there's different, you know, I find that more through, um, Speaking to other peer er er disabled people, oh you can get this er er er stuff, you know, I've learned through that, you know, from peer support, um, um, from disabled people, um, also I would say, um, Uh, NHS and local authority, you know, the funding issue, you know, uh, means disabled people either go without or pay out of pockets, uh, for equipment, which is fundamentally needed er for human rights, in my opinion. So you picked up on so many things there, so interesting listening to the different topics that you brought up

I think the first thing you said was about like design and how a lot of the times the equipment that you bring into your home, your space, it looks like something out of like a hospital ward or like quite like clinical. So, how do you think you could get around that? Like, what, what do you think a solution to that could be in terms of Making it more catered to your style and what you want in your space and your living environment. Uh, this is where co-production, I, I, I, I feel that cos um

If we could do more within that space of um co-producing with people, they will tell you what they need and what that style might er er er look like, you know, and a classic would be um how I got my shower room done. Yeah. And and when they first came, the er the choice I had was what

And that was it. And that was it, and I said, but it doesn't fit in. With what you can see

So uh it was um a lot of my time was arguing with them saying, why can't it, I have a choice in the colour it should be. Surely if you're putting something in and you want more use, people to use it. I don't really wanna use it and they say well you should be grateful, you know, and I'm like

I kind of, yes, I am grateful, but surely it should meet my needs. Yeah. Uh, you know, so, you know, for me, co-production and listening to, uh, what people want, uh, and shape it to their needs

Yeah, I think it comes back to what you were saying before about like, independence and choice over your own life. Like, why shouldn't you be able to have whatever colour bathrome you're on, like, what, what's the problem? Absolutely. It's a bit like one of the examples I said to him, I know you think I'm, I'm being fussy over the colour, I says, but if I came to your house and I said to you, um, for your dinner

You've got no choice. I'm telling you you're having baked beans on toast. How would you feel? Well, I like baked beans on toast, but I won't want it every night, and I've got a absolutely hates them

So that would be a bit more. Absolutely, and for me, I don't like baked beans on toast, you know, and like you said, some people would like it, but it wouldn't it be better that we have this conversation to find out, uh, you know, our likes, uh, you know, our hopes and our dreams of what that space could look like. That that is a massive part of life as well, isn't it? Like having

Your home reflecting who you are as a person and your individuality, like. Absolutely, you know, I don't want a house, I want a home. And there's a difference in, in that uh for me, so surely um in my home, I should be able to shape what that looks like and feels like

That's just. Uh, for me, a given. Definitely

And so you mentioned co-production there, so reflecting back on some of the other points, so I think you mentioned the difficulties with getting equipment repaired, so like you initially it's. Really helpful to get these pieces of equipment in your life, but when it comes to Getting things repaired, cause things break, things need repairing, what's that process like? Oh it's uh it's um mind numbing, if I'm, if I'm gonna be er er honest that um the procedure that you have to follow, uh, you let them know, they tell you it's been sorted, but no one, but how long the piece, you know, you don't really know and it's. It's a long time, especially if you need a piece of equipment that you use every day

You know, someone might say, well, it's gonna take 8 weeks, 12 weeks. That's a lifetime away er er er er for uh for me and many others, you know, it needs to be, in my opinion, responsive. You know, and flexible to, uh, the person's needs, it should be like, if I wanted anything from uh Amazon, I can have it within 24, you know, the next day delivery

Yeah. I don't understand why er you know, certain things aren't um equipment, just to get an assessment. Can take ages to get that er equipment, you know, and, um, it's just more awareness about um it's, you know, it's not just about, Numbers and and and needs between behind each number and needs, is a person, is a person who's trying to live their life

you know, well. You know, not just surviving or existing, they're trying to live their life well, and that piece of equipment might be a piece of equipment to you, it's an enabler. You know, and it's that needs to be um that's like right equipment, right time

He's really important, they're not just slogans to me. Mhm. Well, and so you said you wheelchair is a, you a wheelchair user, it's a big part of how you get around day to day and get your independence

If. In terms of like getting repairs to your wheelchair, is it, is the approach like responsive so when something happens, you'll have to wait to get it fixed, or is there, is there a way where you're offered like, You know, like an MOT that you'd get on a car, you go and get it checked once every so often just to, to keep tabs on what needs changing, what needs fixing. I I to pay for that

OK, OK. I have to pay for that, you know, um, I have to pay for that, um, I have to take out insurance. I, uh, and it cos, um, it should be as responsive as, you know, the RAC

You know, the RAC, if your car broke down, you should be able to, uh, but not for wheelchair services. It takes ages. I and broke down last year, uh, uh, December in December, and then I and then broke down in the middle of uh a shopping centre in Birmingham

Uh, I phoned the other and they said um they couldn't come out. To me, till 2 weeks. Wow

So you essentially in their brains, you're stuck in the shopping centre for 2 weeks. Absolutely, and I said, so what am I supposed to do? And if it wasn't for the er the shop, the shopping centre borrowed me the chair, you know, a manual chair for uh my PA to get me into the vehicle, we took the er um. The chair back uh to the manual chair back to the uh supermarket

Yeah, so I could get home, but I was then stuck in my own home for two weeks. Yeah. Cause I couldn't uh uh uh I didn't have a an electric chair

These are some of the everyday issues that uh uh wheelchair users have about, you know, um, you know, just. It's not responsive, you know, and er and I suppose um. A lot of people don't see that in their, in their life, and they wouldn't, they would think

There was something responsive like RAC or er you know, breakdown service, but it's, it's not. And Just reflecting on some of the other things that you spoke about. So, I think cost like you mentioned

That's a big factor in terms of. The cost that you've got to fork out for yourself out of your own pocket. And obviously that brings up

Loads of issues in terms of. Inequality and what people have access to in their own personal lives. So, yeah, could you reflect a little bit more on that and how that impacts what? Equipment you have access to

Yeah, it, it, it does because the uh um the costing now er um now certain equip uh because of disability or impairment or health conditions, there seems to be an extra cost to that, to having a disability. Now if you are um if you can um access, you know, public er er funding. You get a kind of basic level of, you know, which I would call more clinical looking equipment

Yeah. You know, if you can afford a, a different, you will go and buy, you know, like a self funder by certain things to adapt to your environment, cos you might have that um you know, uh access to to that money. So we've got a growing inequality gap

You know, all based on whether you've got money or you haven't. Now to me, that's not equity. You know, and that's not fair

You know, and that's some of the inequalities within the, in the system and other inequalities. If you think of um disabled people who can access PIP and might get the Motability part of PIP. For a car You know, um, Some people, uh, within that, you might need to um get um hoist er er elements of your, your car, but if you're working, you can access that from access to work, but if you're not, you've got to pay it yourself

So there's a inequity in the sys in the system. You know, and, um, and that's what disabled people are constantly dealing with in their life. Yeah, um, what, like, disabled people, the constant battle that you talked about there, like, the things that people are dealing with, what, what kind of impact does that have on you and like your well-being and what your life is like day to day

It has a massive um. Implications on your wellbeing because er er stress has a big factor, uh uh you know, because you're constantly fighting to er er to prove that um you are somebody, you're visible to a to a system that sometimes doesn't feel compassionate, you know, or doesn't show any empathy to your position, you then become more of a number. You know, just data on a spreadsheet or a number that they er reference you um but by, but not as a human being who has aspirations, hopes, dreams of, Just being part of society

You know, doing the things that most people take for granted. I don't think it's quite um. Understood

You know, and, um, that's, you know, for me, some of that is, um, awareness raising, education, um, and, and also what type of society. We want, we need that conversation more and I think um. Personal stories

Can evidence that, but it's also about um you the solution of what needs to change, you know, for me, I've talked about red tape. um faster, more person centred, er er er access to assessment should be quicker, uh, designed around the individual actual life, not just the tick boxer uh exercise. Other solution for me would be um

Consistent funding and provision for, you know, disabled people, we know there is added extra expenses because of er a disability or impairment or a health condition. That should be factored in consistently, when we, you know, uh and that um would help um equipment access, it um it shouldn't depend where you live. Um, we need a national consistency with, uh, a right to assistive technology embedded in, in, in the law, uh, uh, for me, cos it's a human rights issue, you know, um, and true co-production in commit er in equipment design and supply, er, um, from the perspective of disabled people and er um, you know, um

People who have health er er er conditions are, in my opinion, the experts, you know, um, in what, er, in what they need. But um, you know, involve us from the start in designing better uh solutions. I think er that's part of the, the solutions, but more flexibility in funding

Um, you know, uh, and what I mean by that is. Whether it's direct payments or the NHS funding of er CHC er er er funding, or access to work, we need a system that actually, In my opinion, enables that choice, er and control rather than just adding more layers of red tape uh to that people get so fed up of, then they don't. Access it or uh claim it if that if that makes sense

um what else um. Other solutions for me would be about recognising um. Yeah, the recognition of a smart home technology as an essential equipment

I don't know if we're there yet. So devices like, you know, smart doorbells, you know, voice activated, er uh assistant, automatic, you know, you know, curtain closers, er, lights should be included in the different funding models, you know, like um. Um, one of the biggest issues is, um, we have, uh, thing in the UK called, uh, disability funding, uh, yeah, the disabled facilities, uh, uh, uh, uh, grant

And it is like a lottery, er, and certain local authorities use all that money, it goes really quickly, so when some people try and access it, there isn't any money left. So you're waiting even longer. It's like a bit like a first come first serve, you know, so um that er has issues out there and that has massive issues for people to be enabled to be more independent, you know, so yeah, those would be some of the solutions I think we need to change

Mhm. And thinking about. I think what what you mentioned, um, about the importance of feeling like

Being treated like a human being and not a number, it's not just, not just pieces of equipment, viewing the whole bigger picture, this is having massive ripples of impact on people's lives and how they, Feel valued and understood and represented as human beings. So, touching on that is, could you give any examples of when you have felt, listened to and heard and treated like a real person and not just a number on a, on a bit of paper or in terms of being Granted access to these pieces of equipment and things. When it's gone, when it's gone well, um

um, I would say, while there are challenges, things have, I've had, you know, uh, I would call, um, green shoots of great experiences, you know, um, when the systems work well, um, some of the things that have worked well for, uh, for me, because I've spoken up, I've helped co-design some of my solutions. You know, um, er, er, er, like I say, one of the best experiences was uh when I'm working with an occupational therapist, you know, um, uh, who actually listened instead of giving me what they thought I needed. But uh they asked me about my daily routines, my work, uh, my aspirations, you know, uh, and the, the result was that, uh, um, they then looked, we co-produced a set of adaptions that actually made a difference in my life

So, um, that was good and also. When technology, um, that evolves with me, and um, you know, I've been included in some er uh um like uh you know, test and learner type er er things that have evolved and um when I needed better voice uh control software, you know, my local service is provided an update that made the work flow much smoother, um, um. And was like small changes that er gave me greater er er support and enabled me and made me feel less frustrated, if that makes er er er sense, which in turn gave me more, Energy to focus on what really matters, you know, um, you know, peer led initiative, talking to other er disabled people about um their experiences on how they've used equipment and and and then go, oh, I didn't realise you could do that

Uh and that's why I think part of that should be part of the solution. um um uh and also how. I learned from what um

Developing uh um. You know, closing for disabled people, the clothes, you know, um, uh, you know, from peer, uh, support, um, talking to other disabled people, especially. Um Uh, uh, um, black, uh, black and ethnic minority disabled people, um, because

Um, one of the things, uh, that I need is like surgical stockings, um, uh, and, um, my circle surgical stockings were always white. There wasn't to the colour of my, my skin, you would have thought that would be quite, but that took years and years to get done. Because no one was really listening, and it wasn't until we started to complain and complain and complain that now I can, an option is to get coloured tone

Stockings. You would think that would be a given. That's, you know, and only through uh co-production of those type equipment

That, you know, er is needed, you know. So yeah, those are the type of game changers when you start listening to people and their views and and thoughts can really improve things, you know, and improve that positive experience, er uh and the idea of improving all the time. Yeah, I think It's listening to all, all of the things that you're speaking about, it's, my head is just buzzing like

And I think, yeah. Listening to your experiences so eye opening, I think, of what, what people are dealing with, what people are going through. Um, but one thing that you mentioned is

Because you spoke up, this has led to these changes being able to happen. Um, but. Well, I wonder like, what, what did it take for you to get to the point where you felt able to speak up or Yeah, what was that, what's that process like instead of, in terms of Speaking up and

Being heard by people, what's that process like? Uh, for me was um. It was, it was a journey to er um because I just thought, um, be grate for what you get. You know, um, you don't want to be seen as a, a, you know, a troublemaker, er, and all of that, and it weren't through because I joined a, uh, disabled people's led organisation

I just thought, hm, I'd better shut up here. I don't want to be seen as a a a troublemaker and I should be, you know, and they er and it was a learning jour journey, that's why I think peer led support is really important. And for me, for my journey, it it was helping with, you know, learning

I can ask for that, won't they think I'm a, I'm a troublemaker and I'm going, no, it's a fundamental human rights. And that opened my eyes to understanding independent living. You know, and the, and you know, and the 12 principles behind independent living, and I've kind of gone on an awareness and education, and I've been, you know, as a disabled person, uh, you know, for me 2027 years

You know, as a disabled person, so my journey, uh, you know, er, has been a long one and I, you know, no one gave me a manual. To say this is what, you know, er becoming a disabled person, this is what er er you can er expect. I've had to learn this, um, you know, living experience, you know, lived and living experience cos every day is different

And it's another learning curve that I'm I I I'm learning about how people see disabled people. You know, so, mine has been. I would say I've been lucky cos I got involved in the disabled people's movement

To educate myself, and then I just thought, well. I need to tell and support other disabled people to try and navigate some of the things that, You know I never know. So I just think it's um in the Caribbean we've got this er saying that I learned from um before my mum and dad passed aways

um it's called er each one teach one. So what knowledge I get, it's my duty to tell. Others, and er the concept came from around slavery, when slaves weren't allowed to read them not

That's where the concept, and I just think it's um it's no good me holding on to all that information. And now I'm just looking after myself. It's, you know, it's as my mum would say, each one teach one

So anyone who's willing to listen, oh, so you might want to try this, join your er er local er disabled people's organi you will, you know, unity, solidarity, and you feel that. You're not on your own? Community, isn't it? I think the the power that that holds and how, how much. Can change as a result of people coming together and sharing their experiences, it's changes the world, doesn't it? Absolutely, and, and we've got to break that stereotype of um we're an island, none of us are an island

We're a community, you know, and, um, one of the principles, I believe we don't talk about much is um there's um. Uh, South African, um, er, er, philosophy called um Mbutu. And I'mbua basically means I am because we are

And if, and that for me sums it up. We're a, you know, um, a village, we're a community. But we've created that we're um

Uh, individuals, we are individuals, but we're interconnected. And we've lost that, in my opinion. Yeah

Well, I think the experiences that you talk about and the fact that, yeah, your approach to life is in sharing your experiences, whether it's today in our interview that we're doing now with. People within The community, like teaching them this ad advocacy skills that you've got and what you've developed over time, that's. Hopefully will lead to some sort of change in terms of the situation that the world's in in at the moment

I hope so, um, because it's not for me, um, it's no good me passing away with all the knowledge I've got if I haven't shared it. It's just doesn't make, it doesn't make sense to me, you know. Yeah

Is, is there anything else you want to touch on, any other topics you'd like to talk about? I just, um, one of the um ideas for, for me, uh, for the future, um, there's 4 ideas I would like to see us touch on, you know, universal access to assisted technology. And what I mean by that. It should be a right, not a privilege

Um, everyone who needs equipment should have timely, um, flexible access without having to fight for it, you know, because people get tired. That's what I hear, uh, often. The other, um, idea, um, for me for the future would be a shift in mindset

And what I mean by that, um, you know, equipment isn't about um helping. Disabled people, it's supporting, it's about enabling participation, you know, and contribution, you know, in society's benefit. When everyone can engage full of society benefits that speaks to that community, the greater good, you know, um, I'd like to see and I like another idea for um for me would be about more investment in innovation

Whether it's, you know, I know AI is, you know, um, but I would cover, uh, I would um I would. A nuance about AI. AI isn't the silver bullet

I'm not saying that AI is a silver bullet, but AI can power accessibility tools, you know, from smarter homes to inclusive transport solutions, and technology should be driving freedom and equity. Uh, uh, you know, for me, not in, not reinforcing barriers. Um, The other er for me would be around

Um, how we develop smart home technology as standards, a set of standards, you know, um. By like how we go about um how we could automate showers, smart locks, er, voice activated systems, or uh apps that control the er er lighting should be as common as er wheelchair, grab rails. They should be that common er er in in disability and accessibility support for me

Yeah. It's, it's interesting looking, imagining what the future's gonna look like, isn't it, and, and how the world can shift to become like a more. Welcoming space for people really

Absolutely, and I think. It's all um um it's about thinking um. What a better tomorrow might look like

You know, um, it's cos the better tomorrow is constantly changing, it's evolving, you know, so for me, equipment is the difference between barriers or possibilities. But it's um it's not just about um. Making life easier, it's about making life possible

You know, it's um we need to. We need a system that recognises the value of assistive technology but removes the unnecessary barriers to ensure that er disabled people have the right tools at the right time to live um fully independent lives. Uh, and for me, that's why

Um, Where you, where we talked about um. Equipment matters, I think um. Uh, uh, we need to move from equipment as an afterthought

To equipment as enablers of freedom, dignity and inclusion. You know, that would be Why equipment matters to me. What a beautiful way to summarise everything that we've spoken about and a good um good closing thought, but if you, before we finish, is there anything else that you wanna share or? Any final reflections that you want to give? I just, um, I think I've er summed it up, I just, you know, um, we need to enable people to think there's a better tomorrow

Mhm. You know, and equipment is, you know, just, you know, it's one part of the jigsaw. Definitely

Well yeah, thank you. Because you, you've helped me um kind of articulate. So it's been useful for me um trying to put it all together

I can, I can send you a copy of the, of the recording if you want, if, if it would be useful for you to be able to look back on. Yeah, if you don't mind. Yeah, yeah, that's fine

And the yeah, the questions that you've um. I've never thought about it that way to try to join it up and it's like um I don't think I'll remember what I said. Well, it's all on recording, so you don't have to remember it

It'll all, all come rushing back when you watch it back. And, um, yeah. Thank you for being so open and so reflective about everything that you spoke about

All, all the questions that I asked you just came from topics and stuff that you mentioned, so. I think, yeah, it's it's been a privilege being able to sit here and listen to you reflect on, on your experiences, so thank you very much. You're a good listener and able to um

Get the, get the questions right to, you know, to uh unpick thinking, so you're a very good listener. Thank you. You, you're a good teller, a good sharer

Thank you, thank you. Right, I'll um I'll stop the recording.