Report transcript in: Justin talks about his experiences of coproduction and academia

Please Report the Errrors?

Hello. I'm Justin Williams.

I'm a second year PhD student at the University of Brighton.

Um,

and I am looking at what employers can do to promote and

support resilience in people with lived experience of the criminal justice system

in the workplace.

Um,

and through

my research, I wanted to involve people with lived experience in a co-produced

way

that was meaningful, not token

because they will bring their lived experience

to.

And where I am with it is the analysis of the data.

They were unable to be involved early on due to university ethics,

academia

throwing up barriers, saying It's not your work if you're involving other people,

if you're writing their name on the

paper, you know you're getting paid to do this. So

I had to find a way to

conduct

co-produced research very, very conscious of the people I would be working with

and mindful that they

feel

very often and it's been said to me a lot

that they are

used in research

and set aside very quickly

in a very token way. So I I

was very careful not to

in trying not to do that, so

because I'd already got all the research questions and the interview questions,

and I I had to

from my ethics board

conduct the interviews myself and anonymize them before the core

researchers can see the data.

Um,

I recruited 10 people, um,

which started as eight

because two never even

end of the first,

which quickly became seven.

And then

the seven of us, unfortunately, had to meet online, which further

hampered the feeling of working as a A group, but actually ended up being

great because that none of them knew each other,

and they were all in totally different locations in the country.

in one way, it

helped doing everything online and the accessibility to people.

But I would say it was harder to get the initial bonding as a group,

bringing forward people that were being

less talkative and giving them space to speak.

And,

um, we worked together to do thematic analysis

of the data. Um, we worked together as a group on how we wanted to

conduct the thematic analysis, which most of them didn't know

what that was and, um

or how to do it. So I had to conduct

workshops with them

again. Mindful of the language and,

you know, pitching it to them in in a way that they understood what

their involvement would be. And I very much wanted to take

the and not bring my ideas to the full. So I had mine separately.

Um,

and once we've established all of their

codes

and how we were gonna code, um, how many transcripts, etcetera.

Hm?

I then brought in my codes and we discussed together

What of these are the same? What could all be kind of lumped together?

Um,

always me sort of guiding, but not

pushing

Being aware of what knowledge I have

that I can use, you know, to help us all

and what knowledge they have that I just have to

take

because

I don't have.

And I didn't want to overshadow anything that

they wanted to bring forward.

And there were,

um, some points within

when I brought up some of the codes and and things that I have found and we just discuss

um, an interview transcript.

They collectively came up with

an aspect of that that I hadn't thought of

which

have not

registered with me at all.

Hit all of them simultaneously.

And it was about and it was an employer talking about.

We've done this and we've done that for them,

and they all picked up on this.

It's kind of

sense that the employer was very proud of what they were doing

this minority marginalised group of people.

Almost a bit kind of like rubbing,

patting themselves on the back for their their good work,

which I hadn't picked up on at all.

absolutely they, when it came to Categorising from the codes to the categories,

spent quite a lot of time for them to understand and to get how that was working.

But from the categories to the themes

moved quite quickly,

and they very much took over.

At that point, they very much were like, Oh, but if that one belongs to there,

then that should be over there.

And

but those two should be in the So they took over then and that was great. And we now have

four clear themes,

So I do have to go back and

do the actual data analysis and the discussion,

and because I've only got three core researchers left,

I've also got some extra budget left, so

they were all a bit sad that it was ending,

and I was mindful of not wanting to do that.

Thanks. I've had what I need out of you. Goodbye.

So,

um, I said, Well, you know, I've got some budget left. Let's meet up.

Once I start analysing the data

and have, like,

report

just to discuss

and I'll feed back to you where I'm coming

from based on the things that you've come up with

and you feed back to me whether you think I've missed a point or I

haven't spent enough time on an area that's more important or

too much time on an area that doesn't really affect you

because they've been in these situations and I haven't. So,

um,

I also took them. I took them. It was all virtual.

I was presenting a a an abstract at a conference in Blackpool,

which I'd submitted two years previously, and due to covid. It hadn't happened,

and um

was now happening. And even though it was work I've done

without them

because it was

abstract from my literature review from my previous masters.

But it's the same subject.

I asked them if they'd like to be involved and the three remaining all

chose to. So I spoke for, like, two minutes and let them

and I I said, You know, how do you want to do this? Do you want to present slides?

Do you want to

talk about what you've done? Send me 100 and 50 words each of

what

it you wanna do just to make sure we don't all overlap each other

and individually, they'd all decided they wanted to talk about

how the whole process of being involved in it had made them feel

they weren't interested in saying we categorised and coded and

and that was great and they spoke from their hearts.

One produced slides,

and

it was extremely powerful because they said things that they hadn't said

to me in our meetings.

And, um,

each one of them said, You know, they did feel genuinely that they had been involved

in a meaningful way. It's very important,

I think,

and they all believe that their opinions and their voice will

matter

what's going on here.

Gosh, there's so much in that. It

it's, um

when you talk about their involvement in the in the research process and

I hear the frustration of it not been right from the start,

as you would have hoped.

Um,

do you

Do you have any sense that if they hadn't been involved, the

the outcomes of the research, um,

in terms of those categories might have been different?

Definitely.

Absolutely. Because

like I said about that one example, there were areas where

they just highlighted things that

I did. I wasn't seeing

how they see it,

and

I think some of the things would have

been more or less the same

in that

one of them is barriers to employment. So, you know, that's a very broad thing.

But they highlighted within that

barriers to employment that I hadn't

of all wasn't aware of.

One of them also brought up having a trauma informed approach.

You know, this was something that I hadn't

heard of before, and I've now been reading up and going to

various workshops and stuff, and

that doesn't just cover people who've been in prison.

But people who have been in prison intersect with so many other

areas, and the whole fact of being in prison is

a trauma. So why wouldn't you expect someone who's going to employ someone from that

background to have some kind of awareness of what a trauma informed approach

would be. So they've definitely

guided

those themes and how those things will be

Certainly.

Hm.

And then and then you touched on the impact on those I know

you. Some you ended up. You know, not not everybody

being being involved at at the end.

Um,

but but the impact on the people that did

core,

you know, who were your co researchers?

You know what? What did that feel like for them?

So the lady,

um, said that it had given her

the confidence to

She's been in employment for 20 years after coming

out of prison and then that employment finished and

suddenly was faced with having to

go through the whole process again,

as if she had just come out of prison and will be judged in that same way.

And so she had

chosen to become self-employed. She had chosen

she'd not done the career she wanted to do

because she didn't want to be faced with saying

saying no.

Um,

but it had given her a newfound confidence and a realisation that

what she has done has been good and who she is now

can be contributory and useful as a member of society. You know

it. It helped to remove some of the self doubt,

I think, and the same with one of the

the guys.

The other guy was very,

is very confident and is part of a network that I belong to, which is,

um, people who have lived experience and

allies,

Um, a networking group. And,

you know, he

he is the one who brought the slides and did this whole.

But he was the one I was most conscious of

not being to

to with

and that he brought

and has experienced in previous research.

And

so conversely. Then what? What has the impact been?

Um, if any on on the university

and those who've supported you through the process, It has there been any learning?

Um, yes,

yes, yes. I mean, none of my

supervisors

have as much contact with the criminal justice system as me.

So they've learned quite a lot of things along

the way around

that even the terminology for

people.

Um, my lead supervisor asked me to.

There's a charity that runs out,

and she asked me to challenge their or to investigate and then to challenge their,

um, application recruitment process.

So they sent me their form and it had the tick box on there.

The do you have a criminal record?

Had a big paragraph after after saying it won't matter,

and we won't judge you on that.

But people don't see that

people have lived experience, don't see that

they see the tick box and think, No,

not even gonna apply because I know they'll say no.

So I have been instrumental in removing that,

Um, my next mission is the university itself.

Um, I'm aware that

you want to be a student here, you do have to divulge,

and

that will impact

their decision. If you have certain crimes, you're not allowed to live in halls.

You know, these things need to be individually risk assessed.

That's all I ask people to think about is

you can't say a blanket.

No, because you don't know the context and you don't know how long ago that was,

and you don't know what's changed then and,

you know, meet the person, discuss it and see what you can do instead of

instantly saying what you can't do

you You also You also mentioned, um, that there was a budget

linked to the core

researchers.

Well, there was.

I got one.

I had to apply for an RT s G A research, training and support grant.

Now I'm funded by the South Coast Doctoral Training Partnership,

which comes under the E S R. C.

Um, So my whole place was funded and had I known

before I even started here

that I wanted to do this.

I was supposed to have put all that in my original application,

but because I've done the Masters,

it was OK for me to have developed and changed my mind on how I didn't know about Covid.

So that came from me being here at this university. And

so I put in a budget. And

I've since been told the budget that they have in mind for people

for their entire three year full time PhD course

no more than £3000

um, per person.

And I got six.

said no one's ever asked for as much as that before, but I justified all of it.

Obviously, it was pre covid,

so it wouldn't involve me getting all of the co researchers get train fares.

And

then when we were gonna go to the conference,

they were gonna have to come on the train and pay for accommodation.

And all those things haven't.

And that's why I've got some money left over

there

and some of the core

researchers have

out.

so have the core.

Have the core researchers given their time then

or have they been remunerated for them?

I was. I was very

adamant that it was fair and that they should be paid for their time.

How can I expect them to give me a day

if they're in employment?

And originally, I wanted to only have people that were in employment because

and

who's not in employment?

And what's happened is I've got one who is

not in employment and on benefit.

He made the decision early on

that he wanted to do it,

even though he knew he couldn't get paid because it would skew his benefits.

The others I went through

multiple multiple

emails departments, meetings

about how can I fairly, because I'm not only going through the S CDT p

funding, I'm also going through the university processes.

Well, we can't put them on as a a zero hours person. We can't

have them as a visiting lecturer we can't like, Stop telling me what you can't do.

How are we going to pay these people?

I cannot write a PhD about barriers to employment

and difficulties faced by people with lived experience,

and then expect them to do everything for nothing.

So eventually we

came up so HR and finance. I had a meeting and we came up with a system where

I approached the employer,

and I said to them, Can you let them have a day off work?

And you invoice me for a day of payment for that person?

So they're getting the same money that they would normally get in their job.

The employer is not losing out. The person is not losing out.

I wasn't able to give them anything extra, because then it was seen as incentive.

And then I crossed over all the other lines and coercion and

yeah,

in a nightmare on that front,

they've done it.

Yeah, I I mean, yeah, good, good to be able to find a solution. But

I I hear the frustration,

um that

that

sits behind that. And then again, you make an interesting point about

everybody's very quick to say, You can't do this, you can't do that. And actually,

the whole point of trying to do co-production is to find ways that you can do things.

Um,

so, yeah, bake it in that way. It's quite

it still didn't go as smoothly as it should have. And the first guy,

loudest one, you know, hadn't got his payment in the right time.

And it was a a collaboration of

things that went wrong but

not my fault and not their fault.

And, you know,

I've asked these people to do something and and

Volt and said to pay them for their time.

And then we haven't done that in

the time specified. So

in hair raising,

Yeah,

so So you're you're part way through

half

halfway, and it and the research and the work that you're doing,

it already feels like it is having an impact in terms of

the the differences. What what's next in terms of, you know,

the research and coproduction, or is that

part

it? Certainly the coproduction part of it.

Some of the learning that's come out of that and hopefully will

people through to the university is

This is a university that has a lot of people who want to do coproduction

and will want to pay their COPD

producers for their time.

We need to find a way

around that. I'm not going to be the only one who's done this,

but my supervisor's already said you might have to write a piece about this and

you know, just to help and inform and

smooth the way for others.

But there's that,

Um, I hope that

once my once the actual PhD is finished,

that that's not the end of my relationship with these

core researchers. Um, I am thinking of doing a post doc. Maybe.

And if I do,

then I'd be able to involve much more

heavily from the beginning with proper funding,

um,

and really work on the disseminating and get

them involved in that much more where they would

feel at home as well. So this would be their strong point,

and I'd be letting them lead on that,

Um, I want to challenge employment policy

with it,

Um,

and I want to

produce some kind of

framework for employers to consider

if they're thinking about employing people

periods,

Here's how to do it. Here's where to go.

Here's the department in the government that you need to be connected with.

Here are employment brokers who deal specifically with that takeaway or the worry.

But these are things that you should consider before you ever even entertain the art

and have because there isn't one out there at the moment.

There's little pockets of information here and there

and if you don't know where to go,

and

they've been very helpful

telling me what's missing

and I know what is needed.

Mm,

no, that's that's great.

Um, I'll stop the recording in a minute.

But before I do, is there anything else you'd like to

add Or

has come to mind

that, um as we're all aware, co-production is a long, long game, Not a quick fix. Um,

and I just hope that it does get more. It's got so much recognition in health sciences

and mental health

and services like that, and it just needs to kind of people need to

embrace it a bit more on a on a wider

level.

Hm.

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cat@curatorsof…

Post date

25/05/2022