Report transcript in: Angela story- the value of Co-production!

Please Report the Errrors?

we trust.

Thank you for agreeing to take part in this. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Yeah,

I'm Angela. Quickly. Um,

I'm part of a co production called Hearing Birdsong.

Uh, we're a multidisciplinary team of practitioners.

People with hearing those, uh,

administrators, artists, designs,

you name it. We're probably one of those people. It's very, very mixed.

Um, but I'm also a teacher

and a parent,

and I think these are all things we bring to co production. It's not just

what we are. It's what we bring to it and all these other things we bring to it. Um,

and certainly in my case, I've also got hearing us. Which is what?

Hearing birds songs about

Thank you for that introduction and a slight glimpse

into the work and project you're involved in.

So you talked about your projects.

I was wondering if you could share with me an example of

co production or an experience of coproduction you've been involved in.

Well, this is the first and only one opinion, but it's a very exciting thing.

We started

off with not knowing anybody in the group at all. We were complete strangers.

We were in a what we call a sound innovation,

which is a bit like a hackathon where a whole group of people get together

and you're given a task

and you have to solve it or find a way of dealing with that.

That task and a task was to find a a way of

helping people with hearing us because there's at least 12 million.

I think of unresolved hearing.

Those people in this country don't getting treated and it's

really serious because they miss out on so much.

So we met for two days. We,

as I say, there were people at the meeting from all areas of life and I mean all areas.

It wasn't selective when we were all on an equal basis and equal footing. We were

provided with some professional information. So we were given

sessions on what is meant by hearing loss on innovations

that were going on so we weren't doing completely cold,

and then

you gradually as you do with any hackers on anything like that, get into groups.

But it doesn't happen straight away. It's a gradual

way of doing it.

It's the way I gather

that they did

in the Second World war to get a cruise together?

Um, they would

a point. All the, uh this is flight crews.

They point on people put them all in a room together

and say Right,

pick your cue so you'd have the pilots and

navigators an exact and they'd all come together,

eventually get a group.

And that's virtually what happened to us. We we were all put together.

But in our case, we talked in different groups and eventually

to cut a long story short. Um,

I spoke to a guy called Tom Woods,

and he said to him, You know one of the things and went to other people as well.

I said, one of the things I found

that needed me to get something sorted about. My hearing loss was two that I noticed.

I couldn't hear birds sing anymore. I gradually I

live near the woods,

and I would walk through there and gradually different sounds disappeared.

And then I realised that I had, um,

the sound. Similar sounding voices disappeared.

So I have to listen to a lot of Children's voices, obviously

and and and my grandson and I found some

levels of that were being lost and in the end, some completely some birds.

I completely lost. So

again we got together.

I think that on that day there were probably about four or five of us.

A researcher,

two of us who had hearing loss. Tom, who's a designer.

I think that's all we were at that time. We presented our

idea, which was to

find a way of using birdsong

to help people

access

hearing care. Because what we have said is that it's really difficult for people.

There's a lot of prejudice about getting your hearing,

testing a lot of prejudice about,

um,

wearing hearing aids.

Um, you know it's associated with age or or noise induced and I don't know,

it's not seen the same as if you wear glasses.

So we wanted a nice, friendly, relaxing way. So that's how we got together.

And we were awarded with some money

at that time from University College

and from Imperial,

and with that money we started and

we then

because this meeting that we were at for two days had so many different people there.

It was such a multidisciplinary group there we

all had all the addresses and contacts.

There really was there.

So what I said to Tom and I want to do I said, Well,

it's pretty obvious we need to contact um,

Dyson

here for the engineering for the hearing.

So he contacted them. Uh, we started having meetings, put the design together

as a group. It was never one person.

Um, so it's kind of how we started.

Sounds really powerful.

And so do you think that you would have been able

to get to where you got without taking that approach?

No.

No, because

I'm a patient and it's a patient,

um,

into a patient,

led or not really lead because I don't

actually think co production is about leading.

It's about sharing and getting together as a group. So although we have

people who've got different skills and do different things,

we all sort of contribution.

There's no, um, it's quite nebulous in that sense.

It's It's a rather unusual way of looking at things, but you don't have

hire a hierarchical system, were not hierarchical, were all seen as equal.

We should all contribute, but we all in the end.

What we found with our group is that you all begin to learn

where you are in there and what your contribution can be.

And that's kind of how we do it. Um,

and

you then at the same time can contact other people

and invite them in

and see if they can help.

And so it's gone on like that.

That's really powerful. So it's through coproduction.

What impact or changes do you think happens?

And they are there any positives or negatives?

But the positive is, I think you go to places you never thought you could go to

because it's not the conventional way of

managing things are looking at things and trying to solve a problem. Um,

therefore, you don't kind of think along those lines.

You're not because we aren't a group in the formal sense, like at work

situation where you know there's a hierarchy, a hierarchy, you know,

you've got boss, you know, you've got people,

you're in charge of all that sort of thing.

So all those politics

aren't there?

I'm not saying they're not there at all in co production, because

whenever a group of people get together, they are there.

Um and, um, of course

I'm not going to kill anybody that it goes smoothly and everything goes right.

But I don't think it goes particularly wrong. I think what happens?

You have to find ways of managing these situations

in a way you wouldn't in a workplace.

So, you know if, for instance, we had somebody in our group he

to begin with, he was the one with people that we met on at the original meeting.

And

he's a lovely guy.

And

although he decided to join our meeting was a free

free

choice of whose group you went to this

hack hacker song Sandpit meeting.

And he came into our group, he decided to join us.

But at that point, at that point in time, he didn't really have any.

And I don't mean some negative sense. Far from it.

Um, he didn't have any action ideas.

Did that matter? No, it didn't. Um, he was a hearing loss. He used.

He was quite has quite considerable hearing loss. He wears hearing aids.

He comes from a group

of a community that we don't always meet.

And so when we came to present our our thing to

win the prize because it was a prize with one,

um, he just said Oh, no, no, no, Angela, No,

I can't be in it because I haven't done anything.

And I remember saying to him,

You have,

You're in our group,

you've got hearing knots.

You're part of it you can't hear and you present with us

So reluctantly came and presented with us.

Now what's interesting with him

is that

he's kind of

ended up being the group photographer.

And every time we have a meeting, he takes photos

and he's very much part of the group.

And so it doesn't have to be somebody in a co production that

brings what is seen as the conventional

contributions that you expect on the team

in saying the work situation,

you know, because you would say of something like that. Oh,

well, yeah, now. He didn't have an idea at that point in time, but now he does.

But if he hadn't brought him in,

you'd have lost him.

And he's been able to contribute an awful lot.

And, you know, we we stayed in contact. He's still part of the group.

He's come to our various sets emissions

and contributes.

If we hadn't asked him then because he said, Oh, I've done anything

what he had.

He decided he wanted to tag onto our group because he liked the idea.

That's how he came to us. He liked the idea

That sounds really powerful about everyone finding a place in co production.

So I wanted to just go back to that. So would you like?

So in your view, what is the value of coproduction? What impact does it really have?

I think it enables you

absolutely, to think outside the box.

There's absolutely no question about that because there are no constraints.

There isn't a rule in the normal sense. I mean, you've got to be

polite, respectful.

Um, you will have times when you don't agree with everybody.

You will have times when,

But then that's part of it. Uh, because, um,

that's really how you're going to

manage. It really

sets one values of co production is that

it's absolutely completely out of this box,

which is fine for people who can think out of the box.

I think people who are coming to it new

and I must admit, when I first came to it,

I began to wonder, How on earth will this work? It can be quite intimidating.

In fact, the opposite of if you go.

If you go to a full meeting at work, that's intimidating to me.

Um, well, it can be equally intimidating

to be part of a co production because you've got no idea what it is about.

You know who's going to share it, who's going to take minutes?

Who's going to record it, Um, eventually work away.

We've been lucky with the people we've had in our group.

To be fair, I don't know where that happens.

Every group we've got, people who've been able to

help with the design. We've got people who've been able to, uh, do the website.

You have people who've been able to do the engineering bit.

But then at the same time, we've always been able to find ways of getting some money.

So far,

I don't know whether that's going to ever stop. We've managed to get finance

from the World Health Organisation very small amounts, but enough to keep going,

and we've now got one from the Design Institute,

so we sort of got along like that.

So it's a funny situation, but not one you'd expect.

It's taking into places you'd never expect you go to

that sounds amazing and great. And what a good illustration of co production.

So you started off saying that this is your first experience of co production,

and there will be many people like yourself.

And then you just talked about, um,

sort of the fear around kind of how it will. You know how you'll do it.

So do you have any advice or kind of top tips or suggestions to people

have never heard of it or on the same journey that you've been on.

So I have never done coproduction. What would you say? That people are

apprehensive,

I think

throw any

thoughts of what it might be? A way

you

don't have any preconceptions at all? Um,

I view it very much or did. And when I look back on it,

really,

I love travelling, and I really

align it to travelling

You,

you go to places you've never seen before.

You visit places you haven't seen for, and then we go down that direction.

But we go around that way or we'll try that

and you learn more and more as you go along. Um,

so I think I think That's what I would say. Um,

it doesn't stop. You don't stop learning.

I haven't stopped learning. Um,

and there are all sorts of things.

You get lost on the way, as you do when you're travelling,

you come to dead ends as with your travelling,

but then you find beautiful moves

when you're travelling. So it's a bit like that is going on this kind of journey

that you never expected.

But it is a good journey to go on

if you've got

if you if you throw all the conventional ways of thinking about

getting together as a group,

you have to throw that away. You can't try and cling onto that, although

we to a certain extent in order to keep it. Cases

do have

somebody who's

ostensibly a leader,

but he's not

the leader,

but he just That's his skill,

and I think that's where you're coming into it. People skills match and they sort of

come into it.

You've really helped me understand,

like your project and the value of co production.

And I loved the metaphors like, and the experiences I've got in my head,

the stuff about what the pilots coming together

and I have this stuff around collectively sharing.

So you have touched on this.

But in terms of the impact on people, groups, organisations,

services and wider society,

what impact do you think your project will have on people, groups, organisations?

Services are wider society.

Um,

that's a difficult one to answer because one of the things

that happened to us is that we were just getting going.

We were about to, um,

go to the Natural History Museum and

run a session there. We were going to go to the Imperial. They have a whole,

um,

not an open system, but they have, like, two days where they do a festival.

We're going to do stuff there.

And then what happened, covered it as it did with everybody.

And so all the things we were planning to do, we couldn't do, um

and we're still still, to a certain extent, haven't been able to do those things,

and I we haven't thrown them out the window.

Um, so we had to adjust.

And

what we did was make her

a video.

We've got a video of what we did, which we did in lockdown in our individual homes.

That is on YouTube so people can see what we're doing.

Um, I think we've got a graphic that I can remember. I don't do the financial stuff.

This is the other thing I remember. I,

uh I can't put myself as kind of more

my my profession as a teacher. I mean, you're an enabler.

You don't do. In a sense, you're trying to

be part of a group, but you're not

the one who's

you're encouraged. You want other people to be,

to shine, to do well. And so is it kind of a different kind of situation. So

we, um

sorry, can you repeat the question again? Completely. Nelson's rich.

You're recording this? It's absolutely fine.

So you talked about the impact and so I wanted to

kind of just explore the impact on people, groups, organisations,

service society.

But from your your work that you've done through coproduction. Okay? Yes. Sorry.

So, as I said, I was trying to spend covid good kibosh on it all before we

went into covid. Because we have we have pre covid covid.

And now we're getting into post coverage.

We have three different iterations of what we're doing before we

got into that in order to decide how we contact people

and find out what people needed to access hearing help in

order to do the designs in order to do the exhibitions

and in order to

get it out there, we actually And if you have a look at the video,

um,

on YouTube,

we actually went and spoke to a lot of people. So one group of people went to,

for example, was the Hackney

brothers, their group of,

men who are who are really

mostly over 50 probably over 60 very hard to reach

when it comes to getting help for the hearing,

you know, a bit reluctant to engage.

And so we had a workshop with them.

We went to them,

not not on them, to us.

And we had They were lovely, actually, and they were saying, Well, yeah,

we'd like this.

We'd like that and they tell us what they were interested in.

One thing they said was that

we could meet if we went to

take the exhibition of what we were doing

to the areas where they were. So, in fact, we went to

I think it's dust and shopping centre so I might have got it

wrong because we're talking about pre covid and it's a long time ago.

But it was the east end of London. We went to a shopping centre. We had an empty

shop that the manager gave us

and we set up there.

So we had all the birds song in there and people would come in

and

we had a system where they could have a hair check

and they were open. So it's anybody off the street.

Basically, we had also done it previously the year before at the Healing Centre at

ST Mary's Hospital in Paddington and it was in.

It wasn't in the hospital by the hospital

and then we'd also done it in another community centre, also in east end of London.

So it's as far as we got

and then Covid struck

in Covid. We didn't stop doing it. That's when we got the World

Health Organisation

small grant which enabled us to make the video

and

to begin to think about doing that.

so the video is out there on YouTube.

I mean, you know, it's YouTube's like how many people watch is another matter.

But at least if people ask me about it,

I tell I give them the link and they can look

at it and it tells you exactly what we've done.

We've also got a website.

So the website will also

And we've also had, um

articles in newspapers,

particularly East end of London.

And then more recently, uh,

I with Tom did a radio interview

on World Hearing Day. That's post covid coming out of covid.

So we could actually start doing more sort of active things,

just kind of so currently we're looking at

developing an app because what we realised is that

covid

just put a kibosh on having a real people

visiting exhibition where you talk to people about it,

where they could actually walk around the room

and hear birdsong

find out if they could hear all the songs

if they couldn't

find out how to seek help for their hearing. Because it's not a diagnostic test. It's

more like

people

indicating, you know Oh,

well, I'm missing some of those sounds,

which is what happened to me

and therefore we replicated that so therefore you can

go and seek help. But a lot of people stop at that stage.

I don't go to seek help, so that's what we were trying to do. So that's what they did.

Percentage Lee.

The people who came to our exhibitions, uh, I have not the figures,

but it's on our video.

Quite a high proportion did seek help, or we're going to seek help

and knew the route of how to get help with the NHS. Um,

so that's that's kind of how we've done it. Um,

we're still feeling our way now because what we're trying to do the app

is kind of

match it to the real life,

Um, hearing birdsong

iteration

with the APP.

Certainly so somebody can go seamlessly or or go maybe go

to an execution and maybe then use the apple vice versa.

And see it's the same thing and that we're only really beginning to that one.

Um, that's how we're getting out there.

So I don't know now whether we're going to the Natural History Museum,

which seems to be it's obvious because it's got the birds.

They were going to have us

and we were going to go

and to talk to the association GPS.

I think whatever it is, all about various other things were going to do,

but they all got stopped.

Uh, like everything else enjoyed a times. That's it.

You have to adjust in some sort of way.

Thank you, Angela.

That really did give me some, um,

a snapshot into kind of how your project and what you've done to support people,

ultimately getting the kind of right support

and actually making it easier for people.

So that was brilliant.

So I have one final question is so in one word or a sentence or an image,

or in any way that you wish to express.

What? How would you sum up the value of co production?

That's that's a really hard question. Interesting. Um,

and for the moment, it's got me stumped. I'm absolutely convinced

Coproduction works.

Um,

I think it just

is a way of escaping

from the conventional ways of doing things.

And if you can find some sort escape from those

and you're not being tied down,

you can

in this case,

find out much more about what you can do to help patients or potential patients

than you would do

in a conventional way. Because none of us were so multidisciplinary.

that

even though we've got people

from all sources in the group,

there isn't you can't say, for instance, we have

and a consultant

who cares with hearing

now. Normally, he would obviously

go along the medical lines,

which is important, by the way.

But because we're so mixed

as part of a group, we don't just go along one track, and I think that's what it is.

It's not going along

one track,

whereas if he went from the medical side or

for the patient's side or from the technical side,

you kind of get a

trying to get one Size fits all. This is not one size fits all.

That's a bit more than just sentence. A sentence phrase were just a final force.

Was was great. So do you have any final comments?

So you wanted to share with me about co production? I've come into my questions.

Um,

I think it's good.

I would like to be involved in other co productions,

Um,

but when I found I'm involved in another one,

it's not co production where the guy reckoned he

was co production and I did try and explain wasn't

and in fact,

somehow, although we Although I took the group to training,

they want to training in coproduction.

Um, they still didn't get it. And in fact, what's happening now?

I think I'm going to not continue with a group, because it

it's just going along a very straight line.

And I don't think he's getting anywhere in the convict in the way that it should do.

It can do a lot more. Just I think it's being stuck.

Um,

so, uh, yeah, I think I think that's it. I'm sorry. I'm not very

clear on that one either.

I said what I take from that is that once you do co production,

it's really difficult to do anything else.

Yes, yes, yeah, yeah.

And in fact, if somebody invited me to another real co co production,

I'd be delighted to join them, but have yet to find that

so And that's really it. I mean, really matters. I

can't seem to

find the other ways of working justice

stimulating. This is interesting. Just as

progressive

as co production.

Thank you, Frank. Rancher. That's a really lovely place, friend. I feel happy.

I'm gonna stop the recording there. Is that Okay, Um

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streetreporter

Post date

23/08/2022