Report transcript in: Isaac -Understanding Anti-Racism in Co-Production Spaces: Centring the Voices of Racialised Individuals

Please Report the Errrors?

Please stop

Yeah

Um.

I think where we where

we'd got to before we.

When I was disconnected was.

That

Um,

Co-production

is something really,

I believe valuable.

Mhm.

Who is it valuable for,

um,

and I

would suggest that it's valuable.

For

Maintaining these status quos that are

at their

racist,

um,

and

when.

I'm invited into co-production spaces,

my experience.

Has been

wounding,

painful.

Othering

And

start to believe.

That is the way it,

it is.

And you start to accept that.

I start to accept that actually,

when I'm invited,

am I really being invited because I have

lived and learned experience,

or is it because of the colour of my skin,

because of my sexuality,

because of my disability?

And I suspect most of the time.

It's around the identity rather than

wanting to hear my voice.

Often see that tick box

process go through people's head

when I'm in spaces.

come across and I,

I much more prefer a very

direct

racist,

you know,

someone saying you packing,

you *** or something like that.

Much more easier to deal with than the racist.

Exists in co-production now

where it's those.

Beliefs

and those behaviours and I suppose people call them microaggressions

being spoken over

that

of course you would talk about

um.

Uh,

increasing diversity because you're the only person here,

um.

That

has any.

Idea or or want or desire to have diversity,

um,

you know,

you,

Isaac,

can cover all the diverse people in the world and speak for them.

But if you speak to things that we don't like,

we'll just ignore it.

We will also

let you contribute in a way that makes sense to us,

not to you.

Mhm.

I've

even had

experiences with where my

intellectual

property,

my thinking.

Has been denied and a white person has said the same thing and it has been celebrated,

saying it in a particular way,

and they're much more palatable.

I think

it's very hard for me to.

You know,

before this,

this opportunity to share with you,

I was thinking about,

oh,

what will people think and

I'm working.

With lots of racist people

and

reading lots of stuff where we're told that we shouldn't shame people,

help people grow and learn,

we need to be anti-racist,

but.

The

people I'm working with and alongside.

Don't want to.

If you

I think,

you know,

there's a

a true sign of madness is doing the same thing and expecting,

you know,

a different outcome.

If you really wanted to do it,

you would do it.

Mm.

I think

um.

When I'm in a in space,

it often feels very unsafe.

It feels that I'm always carrying

this idea.

That

at any point,

I will be uninvited.

And with the uninviting,

it will be done in a way

that will be very brutal,

very silencing.

Um,

and

I see

also.

White supremacy play out

bringing

multiple perspectives into space of co-production.

And creating the conditions where they fight.

And they are opposing each other.

So rather than

me and somebody,

uh,

with a similar experience,

we are having fights between black and brown people that are engineered.

We are having fights around whose voice is more important

because we would rather create.

Discomfort and

deal with our own discomfort about being racist

and working in institutions that are racist,

formulating our practise around.

Racist

ideology,

um,

supporting only the deliverers and the power holders

to predominantly be white.

Hm.

And

are held back

and it has a knock-on effect in terms of.

Academically,

You

have to be.

More smarter

You have to do more work,

and that work doesn't get recognised.

You are often minimised and marginalised because

you know more

and people find that threatening.

There is a denial that any of this has to do with

colonisation

and

empire and,

and.

Historic racism

that

is living and breathing today.

I remember,

you know,

when people.

When,

ah,

oh God,

there's a black man that we don't know in America that's been killed.

And

my response was that

And all the other black men,

all the other black women,

all the other

people

that are from global majorities that are killed in this country.

And

that was a moment that I think people did that.

And then I thought

maybe there was an opportunity to have a more just world.

And maybe people would

step into

some of the spaces I was trying to step into

and.

In showing co-production because I believe in co-production.

Um,

what I believe is in collaboration and

working together for change.

And

What

I saw in that moment is all of these people

jumping onto something.

And very quickly on we went from

being

um.

The heart

The hard to reach,

but really

the easy to ignore because we're not hard to reach,

we're just easy to ignore.

Um,

I live in a place which is very diverse,

but when any

co-production space and opportunities is convened.

There aren't black and brown people there,

or if they come,

they don't stay too long.

And

it at that time I thought there was a glimmer of hope that people would start tuning

or tuning in to what needs to happen.

Um,

and.

For me

I'm married to a white

man.

I'm

half white.

have a very diverse family.

And I see

How different

in the real world,

white people get treated,

then you invert that into co-production spaces.

And

it mirrors,

but it's more present.

It's very,

very present

and

isn't

that social.

There isn't the other people

to call it out,

and when you do call it out,

you are gas lit,

you

are

silenced and cancelled.

There is a.

Idea that

we need to work

together for mutual benefit,

and that means that we don't face

or deal with racism,

we have to be nice and play nice,

we can't offend white people because,

You have to work past it.

I always get told you have to work past it,

you know.

They didn't know what they were doing.

Um,

recently

I was called passive-aggressive for raising racism.

And I thought oh good well.

I'm aggressive aggressive when it comes to racism,

I'm not passive about

being anti-racist.

And then I look

at the people that are doing it,

I'm not saying that there aren't people doing it.

And

those people,

particularly those white people that are doing.

Um,

The work on themselves and the work on their thinking.

are prepared to take

and do the labour,

um,

and it's it's.

Hard,

it's not easy.

Um,

it is really a journey

that

It needs intentional action,

it needs intentional thinking,

it needs that level of emotional

intelligence.

That

I think a lot of people

shy away from.

There is,

and there has to be reparations

to people that have been wounded

and there has to be

Equitable approach

that isn't

designed

and

created

around white centeredness.

So when we talk about equity,

already we're

thinking about equity from a white

centric perspective.

Um,

and I'm always trying to.

Break it down but I'm tired and burnt out.

No.

You know,

in co-production spaces.

Where I am the facilitator,

I'm.

Often having to back

things off to make those spaces work.

When I bring

that knowledge and learning back,

there is a lack of desire.

To respond

from

my white peers and colleagues.

The

challenge always gets put onto the racialized

global majority people to be the solution,

ones that are doing and perpetrating the racism.

We're experiencing it.

We're told

that

our brown scars or our wounds

are OK

as long as we don't upset people and I often think of the the um

white tears that come.

And that then

when people recognise their racism,

how

they use emotion

to bypass the fact that they have been racists

or.

Um,

there is no

restorative

work.

I need that I'm involved in

where people are.

Wanting to show up.

Uh,

I might raise something as,

oh,

this wasn't ideal,

this was in my experience racist.

I'm told that's your experience.

Yeah,

that is my experience and that's valid,

um,

and I might wait 6 months for a response

um to that.

But if somebody else raised a concern and they happen to be white.

Uh,

there'd be a very quick response.

There would be.

A level of care.

That

I see black and brown people not getting.

And

then I'm sitting in my home,

reading about the experiences of

black women

who are

receiving maternity care,

more likely to die.

Hm.

That's a fact.

That is a proven fact.

Brown women,

Asian women,

2 times more likely to die than 5 times,

you know,

facts.

In fact,

when I go to the

mental health

unit in in Newham.

Full of black men,

still being dehumanised.

These are not.

An anecdotal

stories.

These are lived experiences.

I think there's a

massive conflict in

the,

the values lots of the organisations

espouse to have around

co-production.

The the one that I always struggle with is it's OK to disagree but do it respectfully.

Now how do you disagree with racism respectfully if you have been.

Experiencing racism all your life.

You're told how to turn up,

you're told that you can't challenge,

and if you challenge you have to do it

in a nice way,

but when the same isn't said about.

The people that are perpetrating these um

These microaggressions and it's not,

you know,

I I would love people to and I,

I see them

thinking it,

shut the fuck up often,

stop talking about diversity,

Isaac,

um.

have

experienced it on so many levels.

Sorry,

I've probably gone off on a tangent.

No,

no,

that was really insightful and then.

I'm mindful of how you described

co-production at the beginning and one of the terms

you said was about sharing power,

um,

but what you're describing

is a lack of that sharing

of power,

um.

And,

and you also spoke about

how constantly being the teacher,

constantly

being the educator,

fighting,

it's really tiring.

How,

how long have you been working in

In this space.

Since 1997.

long,

long time.

Started in.

Uh,

Started in kind of youth services um.

You know,

I was

born of

what made me

was

being in a special educational or a pupil referral unit

where you had

all sorts of people that were excluded.

And

doing youth work and

Living in shame cause I lived in shame a lot.

As a child,

you know,

my sexuality wasn't something

that was

embraced,

um,

not having positive

role modelling around it.

there was a lot of me sitting back and being

a bit of a an observer and

I think now we would talk about those intersectional experiences.

But it often wasn't safe because

of my sexuality,

often wasn't safe because of the colour of my skin.

Then when I um.

Became or

started to have the

disabilities that I do,

it wasn't safe because of those.

Mhm.

Started to see

and notice.

That

There were some people that.

Automatically.

Had rights that.

Some people didn't.

And some people

automatically

had platform and opportunity that some people didn't.

Mm.

I wanted to

to be different in the world.

And a lot of the centering of how people wanted me to be in the world.

Was from this really white perspective,

or this really

trauma perspective,

you are the

brown person that's had mental health challenges,

rather than I am the teacher.

Of how you

work alongside people in inclusive space.

I am

the person

that is helping you

turn up in the way that you need to turn up.

Which I often do,

that they,

they're not the things that people tapped into,

what the people tapped into was all the negative stuff.

And

I do co-production.

Everywhere

and anywhere that I can.

And I've done

that because

I believe.

That I've been

No,

I know that I've been

held back.

I haven't had the same opportunities and financial opportunities

as other people with less skill and knowledge.

have certainly been excluded because.

I learn

That

And it's a family thing.

That they're gonna kick us,

so we,

they might as well kick us when we're we're talking our truth.

So talking my truth isn't something that I find easy to do.

Some people have

conformed to

not talking their truth.

That was not something that I could do.

Um,

and

I feel co-production or,

you know,

sharing power

is really,

really important.

We don't like to do that as human beings.

We have egos,

big egos,

right,

that often rooted in our own experiences of the world,

that be our intellectual or our spiritual or our identity experiences.

And

the notion of sharing power

probably doesn't come into most people's thinking,

you know,

it's become a,

a theory,

isn't it?

Let's share power.

You ask people to do it,

different thing.

And it is simple.

It's you know how you invite and create space.

For people to to be alongside.

Mm.

I talk a lot about hosting.

Uh,

We invite people

and then we don't host them.

We invite people and we don't keep them safe.

So what kind of people are we if we're not doing that?

Um,

and there's a lot to be learned from global majorities communities how we.

Share power.

And how we

think about power,

it's become this

thing that everyone talks about.

Yeah,

struggle to do.

Cause if we have to share power.

We have to fundamentally look at ourselves as the problem.

So if we think about the sustained tax from

The government in relation to lived experience,

no such thing as institutional racism,

there's no such thing as racism,

you know,

we've got

politically.

Brown leaders,

black and brown leaders

that are perpetrating racism.

And you start to think,

oh my God,

is this

um conspiracy at its best?

How have we landed in a space where.

And there was a big shift,

you know,

there's been many,

many,

many shifts.

Um,

I was very conscious that

when,

um,

Brexit happened,

that just gave licence to people to be so openly racist.

I was like,

are you taking the piss?

Like,

I can't believe.

How many people?

Just think it's OK to be like this or I just like this.

Um,

and,

and I'll go back to my youth working days,

being in a space where

There were people that

had lots of challenges and problems.

Certainly,

the,

the majority of people there were,

um,

from racialized communities.

It gave me

a sense of

safety.

Around being

uh being surrounded by people like me

that were having similar struggles.

And it gave me.

Pain to realise that some of these people

will never be able to get out of this because

there's so many barriers they have to face,

and,

and that's probably why I got into co-production is because I think it.

Is something that

we can use.

Make a difference,

um,

and,

you know,

like,

we can talk about,

you know,

let's have an in,

you know,

let's.

Have a more diverse co-production,

um.

Facilitation facilitators.

But we still hire white facilitators all the time.

Why not actively

say that we're only gonna hire black,

you know,

like,

you have to really be radical.

It can't be,

you know,

like we'll have a strategy,

but our strategy will take us to having some words on a piece of paper,

but we still have the same processes in place,

which are inherently

and at their heart,

created around white supremacy.

So if you have had.

And I would say everybody that is from a global majority community in this country

has experienced racism.

And has experienced disadvantage,

even if they've succeeded to

minimise that gap.

They're already.

Second guess they're already

having less opportunity.

They're being

you know,

chosen for jobs.

You know,

you might have one person in the organisation that's seen as a good thing.

That's not a good thing.

You know,

you actively need to disrupt that,

um.

And

talking about power

is probably really important,

but sharing it is even more important.

And we,

we need teachers

um and we need.

Mentors and we need people that can really help us understand what that

physically and practically looks like in terms of sharing power.

Who is the first person to speak on the Zoom?

White man all the time.

Second person,

a white woman,

then you might get that person from a global majority background that will speak.

But they're all ready because.

Of their experiences thinking I need to speak in a particular way,

this might not go down

if you're talking about

inclusion and diversity.

Well,

so I have to set in

a white way.

We whitewash our thinking,

we guess like ourselves as global majority people in co-production,

and then we go home and experience it,

we walk down the street and experience.

It's relentless,

it's um.

You know,

you can't

change.

The colour of your skin,

Tony.

I can't change the colour of my skin.

That is the first thing people see

on Zoom,

you wouldn't know if I'm in a wheelchair or not.

There are things you can hide,

you can't hide your race.

Mm,

I mean,

I'm lucky.

I'm not so black.

Because let me tell you,

the darker your skin is,

the worse it is for you.

I've seen that.

I've,

I the colorism,

I've seen people

really,

really struggle with

this idea.

privileges that come

even within,

you know,

our global majority communities,

and I'm always mindful that I have had so many privileges because I am lighter.

No,

can pass.

I talk in a particular way,

um,

Just know that I'm more palatable

than.

Those black men in that mental health ward,

and that makes my heart.

Mm.

Well,

What would change look like?

What would?

Well what would moving towards

look like?

First of all,

Doing

no more harm.

Mhm.

When we're thinking about change,

think of it from a,

let's not do any harm

in the attempt to create change.

Let's really think about how we intentionally.

human beings

really.

Embody

being anti-racist,

and I'm gonna say anti-racism and

being anti-racism

isn't just about the experiences.

That are written about,

these are real tangible lived experiences.

How calling in and

how we facilitate

safe spaces,

brave spaces,

how we.

Pause

our current practise

and do something different.

How

we,

and I'm lucky I've got allies around me.

I've got a lot of white people

that don't

talk about anti-racism,

but I see when I'm in a meeting and my ideas come up and be stolen,

they said,

oh,

but Isaac just said that a minute ago,

or,

oh,

this is what the stuff that Isaac's been doing.

So I'm lucky,

I'm I'm fortunate

and

there is.

No magic bullet,

you have to be prepared to do the the work.

You have to be prepared to look at yourself

and how you show up and turn up in these spaces.

And you have to be prepared to recognise

that

we are all perpetrators

and we all have

experienced

these feelings in some way.

But some people

experience them much more often

than other people,

um.

We have to acquire knowledge and we have to really understand

and.

Our stories are being told by white people,

are being curated by white people,

are being

shared

in white centric ways.

If we don't.

Control

how

we are seen and how we have ownership over our.

Lived and learned experiences

is really,

really dangerous.

And I don't know,

I don't know,

I'm still struggling to figure out how that.

Is achievable

for me

it's been about reading,

it's been about

my spiritual connection,

it's been about

groups of people

that are wanting to acquire.

Knowledge to be different.

It's

been about not shying away.

You know,

we shy away from pain,

but actually,

you might have to embrace that pain

to do something different.

Um,

and the idea that we create safe space and it

should all be nice and everyone should leave feeling happy.

I think that's something that's been created.

In the absence of understanding,

we're not happy,

we're not safe,

and we are not being looked after.

So that

centering of.

Psychological,

emotional,

trauma informed practise

is always for white people,

but always for institutions,

then we're getting it wrong.

Maybe.

Well,

One second I'm just wondering.

How are you feeling because

So much of what you said resonates with

my experiences of

working in this space and

being treated and seeing other people being treated like you've described and um.

Yeah,

I'm just wondering,

and I haven't really had many opportunities or forums

to give voice to those feelings.

I suppose I'm wondering how you are feeling now.

I am

left feeling.

I could probably explain it in

my stomach churning.

Mm.

I'm trying to embody the feeling,

but.

There are

prevailing thoughts that are coming into my mind,

so I'm feeling pain in my heart and my stomach,

but the thoughts are coming

into my mind.

Oh wow.

White people in co-production

going to hear this.

Creating a rod for my own back.

Mm.

And I

Being fair

And

that is how.

I have been conditioned

to gaslight myself around the experience of racism.

So I'll probably go back to the feeling of

sadness,

guilt.

Emptiness,

the physical,

cos I feel the scars,

I feel the scars,

I feel like I'm.

Walking along,

being in the world.

And I feel the scars.

I feel

more scars and.

I feel scared.

That

It was not long ago.

You know,

like I,

it's so funny.

I often have conversations with people.

was,

oh that was 300 years ago,

but,

you know,

and I'm like.

And,

and that means what?

Mm.

As a

Brown person.

When and if they open the gas chambers in in Europe,

which happened.

the lifetime of people that's still alive,

it was the disabled people that were sent there first,

it was the Jewish people,

it was

the brown people,

it was the Roma

Gypsy.

And

I think sometimes people

use.

Time

to.

Mitigate

these are.

Experiences that have been happening

for hundreds and hundreds of years and we're over them,

so you should be over them.

No,

I'm not over them.

I will never be over them.

I live

and love where I live.

But I feel like a guest,

like I do in co-production.

At any point I can be unfriended,

unwelcomed

because I don't have the power,

I am other.

Mm.

I am seeing in the eyes of some people

as less than.

Um,

And

then

I think about.

Oh Lord,

when you really explored that,

we had to.

You know,

dehumanise.

People

to export them

from their homelands

because we want sugar.

We wanted,

we wanted cotton.

Created gas chambers

because.

We didn't want

the

the soldiers

to be so traumatised,

it was easier to gas people and burn them

than to shoot them.

That is just fact,

that is historical fact,

you know,

we dehumanise people.

And

that legacy.

certainly present in co-production for me.

Yeah,

I believe in its immense power to create change.

Mm.

But

not enough people are turning up and showing up as I would expect them to.

Mm.

And the labour.

That

Global majority people.

Just the fact that we are global majority people.

Should mean that we have the most amount of power,

but in reality,

we have the least amount of power.

The stories that are told about Africa,

India,

all of those things,

you know,

you can just.

Poor countries,

or because we've extracted their wealth.

You know,

probably because we've taken their knowledge.

Or because we.

Violate them.

And unless you can see yourself in.

And your family and your,

your

whole existence has been part of that.

And that's not just people,

because

people wanna do it nicely,

don't they?

They wanna be

the good ally.

And at the end of that,

we're anti-racist and,

or,

you know,

I've recently did some interviews for a big co-production world.

And somebody said,

I can't be racist.

I've got lots of black friends on,

on,

on my Facebook.

And I was like,

Mm,

you know.

Are you,

are you taking a piss?

I'm like.

Well,

we all are prejudiced,

we all have caused wounds,

we all carry scars.

The majority of people

don't wanna,

don't wanna go into that space of like this,

you have to understand history of.

Racism

and their multiple histories,

you have to understand how

our systems and institutions that are doing co-production are built on those

legacies.

Mhm.

dehumanisation,

you know,

like,

for instance,

this

piece of work is commissioned by the co-production collective.

You only need to scratch beneath the surface to see what institution UCL

and the legacy UCL has had.

In relation to some of this stuff.

But we wanna forget that,

we wanna move past that.

You cannot do this work with that when

you deny people's history,

when you deny people's living experiences.

And the fact that you are not showing up for us.

Mm.

And

I may never get invited back to another job.

But I'm leaving my truth.

Mhm.

Where is that um.

You've left me with lots of

food for thought,

um.

While you're talking.

There's uh

there's a woman called Ali Lee

who's just

released a song called I Have Purpose

and I have Wounds and

a lot of what you were saying was

just echoing and I think.

It's really hard.

For people like us to.

Who believe so passionately in co-production

to still

forge a way forward when

the change sometimes or the biggest change is needed

is within those

institutions or within the.

Structures that

perpetuate the status quo,

my heart goes out to you because on the one hand,

We've been called upon.

For our knowledge,

but as you said earlier on,

sometimes it's not actually that it's because we

Fair particular

Protected characteristic box and that's all

they want us for

um but when we speak truth to power,

suddenly

we're upset in the norm we're suddenly,

um,

so that takes a lot of energy to keep turning up,

to keep showing up.

And I beseech you,

um.

Not to give up because you also spoke about having some good allies,

um,

and

sometimes those people who help us stay focused,

they give us balance.

Um,

and without them,

yeah,

I suppose I certainly would have given up a long time ago.

Um,

you've come a long way,

Isaac,

you've come a long way,

um.

And there's still

a journey ahead of you.

Um.

Thank

you again for speaking so candidly,

um,

openly and.

Yeah,

I wonder how

not only,

I wonder how the audience,

whoever that audience is,

is gonna hear this.

Will people be able to relate to it,

people.

Do that call to arms that that you

said about actually starting work with themselves,

um.

Yeah,

if we're gonna bring about

the change we want to see.

And please do not see my passion.

As anger.

I have passion,

anger,

all of it.

No.

To people is remember that.

Well,

be mindful this starts with individual journeys.

Absolutely.

We,

if we have privilege of any sort,

if we sit back

and we hold back and we hold space and we ally for people,

and we really,

really try to.

Be equitable.

I think

Will go a long way.

Yes,

and I'm gonna leave

this call with

silence

is violence

and for those that are silent,

you are being violent,

for those that are confused.

There are people to help you be unconfused.

For those that are wounded,

there are people to help you heal those wounds,

and for those of you

that wanna do this journey.

Please come,

come,

the,

the table is full

of love and abundance and care.

Even

when

pain

comes,

will help you.

That's who we are.

We've had to

hold our own pains whilst helping other people hold their pain.

I don't um

this to continue,

I want this to end.

Wanting that

takes action.

And that might be

something very big for some people,

something very small for other people.

And

the biggest

thing.

That I learned

Was always questioned.

Why am I thinking like this?

What is happening in this moment?

What is

it about this?

That is making me feel uncomfortable.

When

I feel uncomfortable.

There's something that

I haven't learned.

Yeah,

well.

Very sound words,

Isaac,

again,

thank you

and um.

Yeah,

this is,

uh,

onwards and upwards,

you know,

just journeys ahead of us.

Thank you so much for holding this space.

You've done it

as you always do.

And I'm sure

we'll both be left with things

that will invoke memories and experiences,

but I'm glad to have shared alongside you,

thank you.

I want to thank you,

sir.

I've stopped the recording.

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Posted By

Author

streetreporter

Post date

08/01/2025