Report transcript in: Humma -Understanding Anti-Racism in Co-Production Spaces: Centring the Voices of Racialised Individuals

Please Report the Errrors?

You should get a notification

um that

asks you,

um,

you're to record,

um,

so first of all,

like,

uh,

a little bit about yourself would be really useful.

So could you tell me a little bit about

who you are and what you do?

Yeah,

so I'm,

I'm Homa,

I'm

A PhD student currently at UCL in my final year.

Um,

I look at

kind of differences in

experiences of psychosis across

different ethnic groups and,

um,

yeah,

kind of different experiences.

So children,

young people,

people who migrate at different ages.

Um,

and yeah,

I have lived experience of,

sorry about that.

Um,

so I had a timer on for work that I was doing before,

um.

And

yeah,

I have lived experience from

adolescence actually,

but I,

I started off using it in

mental health,

but I guess it's kind of become a bit less now as I've become a bit more

ingrained in academia,

which I don't really like,

but

yeah,

it's just kind of how it's gone.

Thank you for sharing a bit about yourself.

Um,

so this project's like really exploring

how and what co-production feels like from

the perspective of global majority individuals.

So,

like,

can you tell me about your experience as someone

from the global majority in relation to co-production?

Yeah,

sure.

Um,

so,

I guess I kind of had,

I wouldn't call it co-production because I find that,

I guess,

a lot of

Things that we label as co-production and mental

health research anyway in London at least,

um,

is not really co-production.

So I'm a bit worried when I say I've done co-production.

So I don't know if I ever have really,

um,

although I've tried.

Um,

but.

Um,

Yeah,

I've kind of,

I started off actually my career

using my living experience and involvement capacity.

Um,

so,

it was the question what it means to me or like what my experience is?

Experience.

Um,

so yeah,

so I started off.

Um,

work at Mcin Foundation,

using my lived experience as a lived experience researcher.

And I feel like that was probably the time when I

used it the most because I felt very much aware that

I was in the space because of my lived experience.

Um,

and so I felt like I kind of had to champion that.

Um,

I do feel like I had a lot more,

like,

face to face contact and,

like,

was working with a lot more people with

lived experience and trying to really involve people.

Um,

so I stayed there for 3 years,

and,

yeah,

I guess.

Continue to use that kind of methods of involving people,

and then I started my PhD at UCL

um and really wanted to carry on doing that.

I was really passionate about it.

Um,

I guess unfortunately the structures of academia haven't really

enabled me to do that through barriers that.

Kind of,

you know,

I guess as I've become more experienced as well,

I'm kind of seen as a researcher rather than

as someone with lived experience and a researcher.

And it's hard to,

like,

I feel a very different.

Um,

I guess.

I used to feel warm when I would tell people

that and when I was working in the charity sector,

um,

and since I've been in academia,

I feel like it kind of has gone the other way where it's like,

oh.

You know,

maybe you're not a researcher,

then,

you know,

it's like,

even though I have

done the things that would,

like,

tick those boxes.

Um,

so I worked with co-production collective as well,

um,

on the hearing checks project,

and that was kind of

really great cause that was my first year in academia,

and I felt like,

OK,

maybe there is a space that I can continue doing this.

And as I've kind of become more like,

I guess,

consumed by my PhD and not doing as much reproduction collective stuff,

um,

and not in that role anymore.

I kind of moved away from it a bit,

um,

not through choice,

but just through,

yeah,

I guess,

systemic

kind of ways that

make me,

make me go through a specific.

Route of

research.

We'll come on to that,

so can I ask you like.

someone that

is a researcher,

as someone that has a lived experience,

what does co-production personally mean to you?

Um,

High production to me.

working with people,

for people

where

I guess I,

I don't like separating our involvement and co-production,

because I do feel like

co-production is involvement

throughout.

So it's,

we're working together.

I'm involved at a research and you're involved

as someone experience.

We're all involved in the project to co-produce it.

Um,

and for me,

it's,

um,

you know,

working together,

using our strengths,

our weaknesses,

to kind of come together for a mutual understanding and a mutual

kind of outcome

that we want from a specific research project.

Um,

and I very much like to see it as a way of life,

actually,

because

I see,

um,

Myself kind of trying to implement.

Co-production

kind of morals across my life in the political space,

in other spaces that like,

you know,

kind of moving away from party politics,

moving more towards kind of the people have the power,

um,

kind of allowing people to have

the voice of people who are directly affected by it.

I mean,

we see it now,

don't we,

in terms of the,

the rights that have been going on,

and we often hear,

like from

MPs and politicians and these kind of even in the left,

um,

spaces,

it's like

hearing from people who

Know about politics.

Actually we never hear from people on the ground who are directly affected by it.

What about the people who have had,

who have been

housed in those hotels that have been burnt down,

or by the people who were,

who do regularly visit that mosque that's been burnt down.

Um,

and so I do kind of,

I know people try to,

try to like keep

the personal and their,

um,

Yeah,

like work life separate.

But I do feel like when you're passionate about their production,

it kind of

is like applied throughout everything you're passionate

about through your life as well.

it's interesting that

we often say

bring all of yourself to co-production.

And then when

it's stuff around racism or stuff around

any sort of is,

then we say,

Well,

that's not

for this space.

It's,

yeah,

you're so right.

Can I ask you,

like,

as a,

um,

global majority woman,

I don't know how you would describe yourself.

Would you describe yourself as a,

like,

how would you like me to kind of.

Yeah,

I guess,

um,

a South Asian Muslim woman of colour,

hijabi.

Even like dark skinned South Asian,

cause I feel like even that adds like

a different dimension to people who might,

yeah,

experience privilege in the space depending on their skin colour as well.

Yeah,

absolutely.

So as a South Asian woman,

um,

could you tell me about like.

Your experience of co-production,

like I'm,

I'm really interested in exploring

how

racism and race plays out in co-production spaces.

Um,

yeah,

sorry,

what was the question?

Like,

what's your experience of,

um,

how racism

and race play out co-production spaces?

Mm.

Um,

I think in co-production spaces,

um,

I think for me personally,

Um,

so I speak about from a personal perspective and also then from the

professional perspective and trying to envelop that

throughout like,

um,

having the experience advisory panel or like.

Yeah,

in my research project because it is about ethnic minority people.

I do have people who are from,

uh,

you know,

um,

the majority and people of colour in my project.

Um,

I think I,

I'm very much aware of like how.

How that there are like,

I guess,

power hierarchies present in all those spaces.

Um,

and I feel like it's something that

takes up a lot of my,

um,

brain energy in

those spaces,

trying to understand those dynamics,

for example,

like on a Zoom call,

when you might have people of colour or

like people kind of expressing their experience through

of race through a specific lens.

Um,

and the way they might be perceived or the way even people react in

A Zoom chat,

you might see that,

I don't know,

even their like physical expressions be different or like,

you know,

people kind of wince a bit and be,

you know,

a bit

hesitant about going to that detail,

um.

I do think

I think there's a very big difference in,

in co-production places in the academic space,

which I guess is kind of like

where my head is going to right now.

But I do think in co-production spaces,

there are people who are kind of like,

especially in co-production collector when I've been

in these spaces where they're kind of,

you know,

really putting the effort in to kind of make

sure that those voices are being heard and they're,

when there's like barriers that we're trying to,

um,

get past them as much as possible.

Um,

I do think sometimes.

You know,

we're so

consumed by making sure we're doing co-production properly that

the race lens isn't really given enough attention to,

and it's kind of a second thought.

Um,

which is maybe,

I guess,

the stage we might be in co-production and maybe when we kind of

find out all the co-production things race might come in.

But I do feel like there's an importance in

making sure that it all happens

in parallel.

So whilst we're trying to make co-production perfect,

you know,

we're also making sure that we're,

um,

Yeah,

like,

uh,

addressing race and racism

at the same time rather than like,

you know,

oh no,

actually now this is like an afterthought.

Can I ask you,

like,

your experience

of doing co-production.

How

explicit is.

Um,

the historical context or racism

or,

um,

imperialism,

all those kind of things discussed like two people.

Do you think,

I hear a lot of people saying,

oh,

we should,

you know,

uh,

you know,

we should be anti-racist,

but I'm like,

do people discuss what that actually means?

Do people understand some of the

kind of,

um,

legacies,

the historical legacies in I don't.

Yeah,

it's funny you say that because I was reading.

Um,

hostile environment by Maya Goodfellow last night,

and

she talked a bit about how,

you know,

that there's this big gap in how we're brought up in this country,

specifically in the UK,

and what we learn about the history of,

like,

colonialism in this country.

And we kind of,

and a lot of our attitudes are actually based on,

like,

the way we kind of first experienced race.

And as a,

when you're not a person of colour,

you might just first experience it and be like,

Someone might say,

oh,

these people in this country,

they're taking on our jobs.

And that's all,

that's just what you think of it,

because there's a gap in

the kind of education we have in school.

Um,

and I think that actually translates into

co-production because I know there's this gap in

people understanding why,

why is there a big South Asian community?

Like,

why is there a big Bangladesh community in Tower Hamlets,

for example?

Why is there

a big Pakistani community in Bradford,

you know,

like,

why is that?

Like,

what has been the

history behind that?

And I feel like the gap in

The kind of education we receive in the UK and obviously,

it's different if you don't,

you know,

receive your education in the UK.

But

in my experience,

that has been,

you know,

people I've worked with have been like people who,

uh,

researchers or have been co-producing and people who don't have that knowledge.

Um,

honestly,

it's quite tiring having to con continue to explain it.

Like,

you know,

like,

I find myself having to do quite a bit of like,

why I ended up here or like

what my family's migration journey was.

Um,

but I feel like

If we

did have that knowledge a bit more,

or like people were a bit more understanding of like the legacies of,

um,

colonialism and like why there is this big migrant,

migrant community in the UK,

I feel like there would be,

that would foster a safer space for people

and people would be a bit more understanding.

And maybe like non-people of colour might be a bit more.

I don't,

I won't,

don't wanna say feel guilty,

but also feel a bit more understanding of like their role in it,

like maybe their family's role or like why their families

might have been complicit in it.

And

Yeah,

I don't know if that answers your question,

but

I just wanted to also add,

like,

I think,

um,

actually,

I saw this,

I was thinking about this the other day in terms

of like when George Floyd was murdered in 2020,

and,

you know,

people were like,

I'm committing to anti-racism.

I'm gonna do this,

that.

And then that was kind of like in this kind of

space where we were all kind of online because it was COVID and people could

just commit to that online on their Twitter page or post a black box,

right?

But now we're

starting to do things in person.

We're coming back to these online spaces and

being fostered.

Like,

there was very little of that,

and it's very noticeable in the last couple of weeks when we've experienced this

kind of,

um,

uptick in far right violence

and people being like,

I just don't understand what's happening.

Like I just can't believe it.

And like,

in my head,

I'm like,

well,

it actually,

it should have been like,

you understood what was going on in 2020,

and this is like a,

and also a product of that.

An extension of that.

But like,

clearly there,

there has been a gap in,

like,

what we committed to in,

in anti-racism in 2020.

And now there's like lack of understanding of why there's far right violence.

Like,

I don't know,

do people,

did people think that

in 2020,

we kind of solved everything to do with racism,

and now this is like,

oh,

no,

it's happening again,

because

the people who live there,

it's like a very real reality of it happening

on a regular basis,

you know?

It,

it,

yeah,

I don't.

It,

it didn't take the murder of a black man or didn't take

COVID or it didn't take the rights to remind me of the

everyday nature of

racism.

Right.

Yeah,

and I'm wondering about.

You,

you said something that really intrigued me around the difference between

you in academic spaces and you in co-production spaces,

and there seemed to be a separation.

We as co-producers often find ourselves in um

academic spaces or spaces led by academics.

Like,

what's your experience in those spaces around

understanding

race and,

In co-produced spaces you mean or like in academic or like joint spaces?

Yeah,

no,

you mentioned academia a lot wondering about like you as an academic,

like what's your experience been,

um,

as a South Asian brown woman,

you know,

what what has been your experience?

Um,

in all honesty,

it's been really bad,

um.

It's been

triggering to

the extent that I never imagined it when I started my PhD and

Um,

it's literally been

I guess in the person that I am,

I find myself like,

constantly addressing it,

constantly bringing it up.

But the emotional toll that that has is like,

I can't explain like how it makes me feel.

And

there's been spaces that have,

like,

there's been,

you know,

hangouts for people of colour to come and

try and describe their experiences and what's happening.

And in doing that,

There's been

You know,

um,

invalidation,

you know,

lack of acceptance,

just,

you know,

kind of being like,

you know,

well,

I'm not accepting that,

you know,

because I'm a woman,

not as a woman of colour,

but just because

they hold that title of woman and they feel

that they're a marginalised person because of that.

Um,

and the pain and like trauma that I feel like that

has on

not just myself,

but also people of colour,

colleagues who

are also academics is,

it's just in a,

um,

like,

Unimaginable and

There,

there's been time,

there's been like quite a lot of times throughout the PhD actually that I've

kind of brought things up.

So,

like I mentioned before,

you know,

for example,

when it's Eve,

for example,

holding a conference,

and this is in my 3 years at UCL so far,

this has happened at least 3 times,

and E is twice a year.

So that's 50%.

Eids that I've experienced in my PhD,

there's been something on the day

of Eve that I've had to make the decision.

Am I going to celebrate,

uh,

like,

religious festival and meet my family?

Or am I going to prioritise my career

and go to this thing where I've been asked to do a talk or even just go to attend?

And it's making that decision is like

that constant exposure to like microaggression is like,

where,

what do I pick?

And like,

it differs from time to time.

I'm like,

you know what,

I'm gonna go and celebrate my family.

And then at other times I'm like,

actually,

this would be really great for my career.

There's no right answer,

but it's like,

I shouldn't have to put in the space to have to answer,

ask,

answer that question in the first place.

Um,

and like,

the amount of times I've done it,

and I'm not saying it has never been addressed,

and there's

almost always a commitment to do better,

but then the next time it's something else that pops up.

So it's like,

maybe an,

a specific group could commit to doing it.

But this is a very systemic issue that isn't being addressed.

And it's,

I don't think it's.

Enough for

it to be actually addressed with the individuals who are doing this.

It's actually

a systemic thing that isn't happening,

that's allowing these,

you know,

issues to occur.

It just kind of baffles me,

like how much it,

like,

I know it's not on purpose,

and I feel like seeing it's on purpose would be,

it would make me be seen as like,

oh,

you know,

you're overthinking it.

It can't be,

you know,

it's one year of the year.

It must just be chance.

But 50% of the time.

Just feel like,

you know,

there's 365 days of the year.

Like,

how there isn't conferences don't happen that often,

or especially,

especially like internal things.

So what are the chances that

something happens on that day?

I know it's not on purpose,

but like something in my brain is like,

is it on purpose,

you know?

Or they're just assuming that there's no Muslims who it's gonna affect,

you know,

that

they should change the date.

I don't know.

I don't know if I'm overthinking it,

but that's just what it makes me feel like.

I mean,

I just imagine we chose the 25th of December to hold.

Um,

the conference,

like,

what uproar would there be around,

people having to choose between

a religious,

a national holiday,

a moment where people

would expect to be with their families.

Um,

I think it's very,

it's,

it's a lot deeper,

isn't it?

Like you said,

microaggressions,

but.

Microaggressions,

constant microaggressions like that's a,

a really

hard thing to experience like 50% of your,

can I ask you like um.

There's been a lot of

reference to we need to have difficult

conversations about racism and race in co-production.

And I'm wondering like

what your view is,

like what kind of conversations do you think we need to have

and how do we ensure people are safe

from a

um global majority perspective.

Um,

I'm not sure because I feel like

All the conversations that need to be had have been had.

And like,

I'm quite conscious that there's a lot of repeating like.

I think spaces I get invited to quite often.

I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot and it's like.

I kind of think,

why do I have to keep repeating the same thing

in different spaces?

Why isn't there a wider implementation?

And

I don't feel like a lot of the things people say in these spaces,

like for myself and my peers,

and

I might be generalising here,

but

I don't feel like people say anything new.

I feel like

a lot of it is common sense that we should have understood or have

implemented by now.

Um,

and I,

you know,

it's like how many workshops,

how many

Zoom calls,

how many,

um,

EDI hangouts are we gonna have for people to just understand

how to treat us all like

humans and how to treat us all equally,

you know?

Um,

I mean,

we're not,

you know,

we,

we can.

it seems like,

um,

I'm speaking from an academic space,

and,

and maybe actually from a co-production space as well,

because we do,

there are attempts to do co-production academia,

but

these researchers,

like,

are able to kind of train in the most

complex statistical software,

complex

methods,

and,

you know,

execute that perfectly and have,

you know,

these

big articles,

um,

published in The Lancet and these big journals.

But then when it comes to like the fundamental basis of equality and diversity and

Just understanding,

you know,

how people experience things differently.

It feels like,

it feels like they just cannot comprehend

that

people experience the world differently to them.

And that is really like

striking to me in that,

again,

it's like maybe you're overthinking it,

but

surely,

like,

you know,

if you're,

you're,

we're all very intelligent and we're all very,

you know,

um,

We have skills in this area.

But

it kind of feels like maybe these things are then

just tick boxes because you're able to train and like,

you know,

do this independent work and be able to achieve

outcomes elsewhere.

But it's when you have to

recruit or make things nicer for people of

colour or from people from global majority.

And

that is like the most difficult thing.

It's like,

you know,

solving an equation that's unsolvable.

Um,

and that to me is kind of where it,

it really hits home of like,

are we just kind of being,

being used as props to kind of tick a box or is this actually being

Um,

implemented into practise.

Can I ask you,

oops my dog.

OK.

Just give me one sec,

sorry my door.

OK.

Can I ask you,

like,

it's interesting and

it's so true,

um,

about

the complexity of the things that we can do.

And the simplicity of getting it right

that we don't do.

So can I ask you what role do you think our white peers play in

doing this work?

So you,

you said that we all reflected

during COVID that.

And

lots of people make statements out about being anti-racism

or racist,

um,

like what do our white peers need to do to ensure that

we don't have this experience that make us feel burnt out or.

What do they need?

I think.

I'm not sure.

I don't think.

There's anything new that they need to do that they're not aware of,

um.

Because,

you know,

I don't know,

I feel like I kind of moved beyond the

Um,

you know,

I like thinking about various holidays,

and thinking about the emotional toll that this will have.

I feel like this.

It's all things that they should be doing anyway

like line managers,

you know.

Um,

yeah,

like research needs,

for example,

for example.

Um,

I think maybe if we're thinking about,

like,

you know,

people in the same stage as you.

So,

you know,

not thinking about the hierarchical,

but like people who are parallel in similar roles to you,

I think maybe like

a different approach to like how we

navigate these experiences.

So.

Um,

You know,

Thinking about how

people who are in the same role as you might having to do more work.

Or might be,

um,

you know,

experiencing more emotional,

like,

discomfort from a specific topic than to the next.

Um,

I think a lot of the burden ends up being put on us like in terms of like,

you know,

running these groups or even in terms of doing this research projects like

Um,

and I don't actually know what the right answer is,

because,

you know,

in some sense,

it's like we should be having people who are affected by

doing the research.

Often the people who hold the ground are people who are white

and kind of have you doing the work and then they kind of tick it off.

And even then,

there's this kind of like,

is this acceptable enough to you?

And like,

how much control do you have?

Um,

and I think obviously in a co-production space,

you'd expect it to be that,

you know,

there'd be this equal role of like,

Um,

you know,

there's consensus and that's great,

but if not,

then this white pier wouldn't have more of a say over the

next or like whether what's acceptable if they hold the run.

But in an academic space,

there is that,

and there is this very much of like,

oh,

you know,

maybe turn this down a bit.

But like,

why are we,

like,

why,

why can't we let people just express the way they they're experiencing things?

I've experienced it a lot in terms of like,

you know,

why it appears being like,

oh,

you know,

I think,

um,

I don't think

they would have meant it this way,

or,

um,

you know,

I don't think

they're like that because they have done this before.

And I think it,

I think there is a gap in them.

That there needs to be some kind of um

Understanding that just because you didn't mean things

a specific way or just because you didn't

intend things to be a specific way,

there is a likability and a suitability that is apparent in terms of like,

what's acceptable.

And there needs to be this kind of sitting with the discomfort and being like,

is it because I don't want it to look as bad as it is?

Or is it because

I'm inherently like,

Dis disagreement,

this isn't a good piece of work,

you know?

Like,

there,

there's,

and there's a difference in like,

how much are we turning it down

because you think the personal colours overreacting or

you're seeing things a different way.

And I really see it in

like peers who are

specifically black,

who

are often told,

like,

oh,

you know,

you haven't done this properly,

or you're overreacting,

maybe we should turn this down a bit.

Um,

Because the funder might not like it,

or,

you know,

I mean,

we can,

they'd say like,

we can talk about this in the group,

but like when we write it up for a paper,

we shouldn't put this in.

But why?

Like,

you know,

then it does become taken issue because you've got this

person of colour who is very much expressing

how they feel,

but you're not allowing them to publish that in the paper,

like,

or publish that in the findings or let the funder know that.

Um.

I don't know.

I feel like it's too deep rooted to be like this is what white parents should be doing.

Um,

I don't actually know,

like,

yeah,

there,

there's.

I think

For me at the moment there's a sense I feel like they know what they should be doing,

um.

And

it it just so happens that there's times when they have they.

Do it,

but it's time limited.

I think,

I don't think there's a limit on the time that

they have to be uncomfortable,

have to keep reassessing their kind of positionality and their privilege.

Um,

can I ask you,

like,

you,

you talked about the emotional

impact,

and I'm wondering like.

How do you keep on doing the stuff you're doing with all of this

stuff that's happening um to black and brown

researchers,

to black and brown co-producers?

Mm.

I guess

I guess it's hard because

Like,

it,

I guess the easy thing would be,

you know,

I don't think that anything's gonna change and I'm gonna leave you.

But then there is this like,

um,

kind of sense of like.

Awareness that wherever you go,

this will be the case,

right?

There isn't going to be a space where

I can do research and this is like

explicitly.

You know,

anti-racist or explicitly fine for people.

Um,

and in a way,

I feel like when you leave these spaces,

they just become worse and they,

all these things are just

kind of reiterated and they just continue to happen.

And I think I'm very much aware of like

the power that academia holds in people's lives in

terms of the research that gets published.

And if,

like,

I can

commit to like,

continue to be in the space and like,

What doing what I can do to hold people accountable to create change

or hope to create change it needs,

then

maybe that's my kind of um

I guess gift to the world.

But

I do think it's difficult,

like the emotional toll that it has.

Um,

and I don't know if this will happen to me in the future,

but there are people who end up

leaving because they don't feel

they can continue in this space without becoming very seriously unwell.

And I,

I do have to constantly assess how I'm feeling

personally,

professionally,

and then like

how my mental health is being affected by this.

And there are times when I

experienced burnout,

but I don't.

At the moment,

I don't feel like there's

spaces where I can like

in a supervision context even

really express

that because when I have done so.

Um,

the only kind of suggestion has been,

oh,

maybe you should take time out,

maybe you should take a period of leave.

And for me,

it's like that pushes me back

and,

and that keeps me in this space for a longer time,

when actually this

thing that is,

um,

Inflicting harm on me actually.

Is what I want to get over and done with,

so I have a bit more autonomy and power in how I navigate this.

Um,

so I kind of guess I kind of go back and forth quite a bit,

and

I don't know if there ever become a time when I'm like,

I actually can't exist in this space anymore.

But whilst I'm here,

I do feel like when these things do happen,

I can't just be like,

Oh,

you know,

I'm not gonna say anything.

Or I'm not going to make these people aware because maybe it won't

lead to change now,

but maybe in a couple of years' time or maybe 1020 years down the line,

there will be a maybe a light bulb moment when they'll be like,

oh yeah,

I remember this person said this to me,

maybe

I should have implemented that then,

or maybe I should have

made that change then.

Um,

and,

and I think in an academic space,

the reality is that.

You know,

it's multifaceted that it's not just a workplace.

It's a place where

a lot of people from our communities,

children and young people come.

This is the first place they come after they leave school.

And so seeing people like me and seeing people of colour

in these spaces exist and

hopefully we thrive and teach them,

maybe gives them a bit of hope for the

world that they'll have to experience going forward.

And that's why I feel like in a different place of work,

I probably would have left by now.

But in academia,

you know,

there's the kind of opportunities to teach,

Um,

you know,

have that space to teach in an alternative way where

the future of today,

which is the children who come and learn in these institutions,

might see the world in a different way.

And you might,

you know,

you might

change the way a future far right

fascists,

um,

You might convert a future far right fascist into

someone who's a bit more understanding and a bit more

aware of the people around them.

And for me,

that is really

The kind of hope that I carry with me as I navigate

this space on a daily basis.

We started off this conversation.

Talking about,

and I think it's important to recognise that we've recently had

um.

The attempted murder of racialized people in hotels,

we've had

open

um expressions of Islamophobia,

xenophobia,

racism.

Like,

how has that affected you?

Like,

I think I heard that you said you weren't surprised,

um,

but how has it affected you,

like,

what have,

how have people responded to you in this time where

it's

much more present for some of our white peers?

Mhm.

Um,

so I guess there's kind of two levels to it.

So,

personal and professional.

So in the personal sense,

I was quite shocked that like,

like I said,

I bring these things up quite often,

that my,

none of my kind of supervision team reached out to me at all.

Um,

and I did a tweet about it,

um,

you know,

saying,

oh,

it's quite shocking to come into the office after this happened over the weekend.

And everyone just kind of sat in silence,

you know,

it's kind of an eerie

atmosphere.

And

Feeling very hyper aware of who I am

in this space and looking over my shoulder constantly

on the way into the office.

Um,

and actually,

um,

shockingly,

my supervisor saw the tweet

and reached out to me afterwards,

but openly admitted in the email that

they were only reaching out after seeing my tweet.

Um,

and I probably could have guessed if they reached out,

but the fact that they openly admitted that,

it kind of hurt a bit more.

And I don't know if I should have been a bit more hurt

or not,

or like the fact that they were being honest,

that,

you know,

they were reaching out.

But for me,

there's a level of care that a supervisor should have

when these things happen and a commitment to

check that you're OK.

Um,

and I,

and,

you know,

there was a very,

there was a

A very obvious fact that there had been an email chain round

sent round to my entire team because they all sent an email

within half an hour of each other,

basically saying the same thing,

but they were checking in on me.

Um,

and it wasn't like it was the first time they'd got to their emails.

It was like 2 days after when,

you know,

the first one admitted they saw my tweet.

And that was quite,

I didn't reply to any of them and then after I

was like maybe I should reply because they have reached out.

But there was a kind of sense of anger for me in terms of the fact that

You know,

I would have had to reply and say,

you know,

thank you for reaching out,

and I wasn't going to be like,

actually,

I'm really,

really pissed off that

you've done this and like you owe me a level of care that you haven't

enacted in a time when I've needed it the most actually.

um.

But the fact that I would have had to perform

um a dance in a way and been like,

you know,

thank you for the email.

I'm fine,

you know,

I'm doing all the checks.

Um,

I'm looking over my shoulder and blah blah blah.

Um,

and so that was the kind of personal experience.

And then,

and then I had a chat with someone in the office who,

um,

you know,

was like,

Oh,

you know,

in London,

um,

you know,

they were saying,

you know,

the news is kind of an expression,

uh,

an exaggeration of what's happening

because they hadn't seen anything happening in London.

And I,

they were a white man.

Um,

and that was kind of like,

actually like,

OK,

maybe you haven't visibly seen it,

but have you thought about the emotional toll this has had on

people of colour in London?

And like,

not the fact that there's been these riots,

but,

you know,

any person who might hold these beliefs,

um,

and,

um,

you know,

secretly and is now more emboldened to act on that and how that makes people feel.

Um,

and,

you know,

I kind of

posed a series of rhetoric rhetorical questions for them to kind of,

for them to come to the conclusion that,

oh,

you know,

I'm saying that as a white man.

Maybe I'm thinking about my privilege too much.

Maybe I'm,

uh,

yeah,

too much.

That was kind of the personal thing.

And I,

and then,

you know,

friends reached out and stuff and

Um,

uh,

I'm looking in the sense that I have a good,

like,

nice community around me,

even in the academic space of people who reached out,

who appears,

not like,

you know,

supervisor or anything.

So that was nice.

Um,

and then in the professional context,

I felt really lost

in that,

my PhD and like my research is on

the experiences of migrants with psychosis.

And,

um,

we work on looking at

Kind of social determinants and

Um,

it,

that really hit in the sense that,

you know,

you kind of

For blood,

sweat,

and tears and to kind of finding out these things and understanding

the kind of social deprivation that exists in society,

that

means that migrants go on to develop psychosis and what happens in that kind of

journey.

Um.

And then when things like this happen,

you kind of think,

isn't it really obvious,

actually,

why are we,

like,

why are we even doing this work?

Like,

isn't it really obvious

what why

people go on to experience severe mental health

conditions and all this money's been funnelled into us finding the cause and blah,

blah,

and using

specific methods that have been developed by eugenicists who,

you know,

to,

um,

you know,

did all this work on

kind of,

um,

racial supremacy.

Um,

but actually,

if we just look around as it's very obvious what is going on.

Um,

you know,

migrants in hotels and they're being burnt down,

of course,

that's gonna.

You know,

be a huge emotional distress.

And of course,

there'll be things in society that

exacerbate their mental health to the extent where they go on to develop psychosis.

And we see,

I think we see these,

we,

we see on the,

in the headlines all the time,

whether it's

whether there's rights or not.

You know,

how this affects migrants specifically.

Um,

but as someone who works in that space,

it kind of felt so like deafening,

these people,

like I said before,

who

have looked at,

you know,

the,

the experiences of migrants and,

um,

the risk of psychosis using statistical

methods and quantitative methods and blah,

blah,

who were just silent,

who didn't tweet a single thing,

who didn't

say a single thing to me,

who didn't,

you know,

Who have

basically.

Made a living off

looking at the experiences of migrants.

And that,

I guess,

was the most

deep part because it wasn't like I could split apart my personal professional,

because my professional was

a professional career is based on

the experience of these migrants who are

the victims in what's going on right now.

Um,

So,

yeah,

I don't know if I answered the question,

kind of went up on a tangent.

I did and my head just went off into,

into like this.

This space of

the irony of um

and I hope I'm using the right word of having.

This conversation in an institution that

has such strong links to eugenics,

the irony of like people.

Making careers off of understanding

the trauma of people that have migrated and

experienced racism and all sorts of things.

Just was very profound and as someone that has,

you know,

I've experienced psychosis myself,

it just made me think,

yeah,

where,

where were people when?

Mm.

Yeah.

Where were people when we needed them to stand up and be counted?

And

I think in a,

in,

in a co-production space,

actually,

it's,

you know,

when we're working with these people,

our relationships don't just

exist in that realm of the project,

like.

You might think,

OK,

we're working people with lived experience of,

uh,

psychosis and migration in this project,

and it's great.

And it's,

you know,

they're,

um,

working with us on the project and we're trying to enact the

kind of morals and values of co-production.

But what about beyond that when they look,

when these,

when there's hotels being burned down on the migrants in,

and these researchers who have

constantly reiterated how much they care about you

and how much they value your experience?

are silent when this is going on.

You know,

I mean,

I think that really speaks to what co-production is.

It's not just

in the timeline of this project.

Your commitment to

the research that you're doing

and to the people who help you and work with

extends beyond the project.

And they look at your Twitter page,

they look at your professional page,

they look at your reactions to these things,

and they think,

well,

maybe they did actually only want me for that project,

regardless of how much they felt involved and how

much they felt that they were able to collaborate

and provide meaningful input.

When you're silent on these issues,

it's very clear to these people that

co-production only exists in the realm of them ticking a box for

funder for this project that had all these like rainbows and sunshines on

the grant proposal,

but actually outside of that,

you're not seeing anything.

Like,

you know,

for me,

it's like if you're committed to this research and you're really interested in it,

that is a personal thing.

And I,

I really dislike it when people say,

you're the person,

the professional is separate because it's not.

Like,

when you're in,

especially in this area of research,

and you talk about mental health

and psychosis and migrants,

it's,

it's a political

thing as much as it is personal and as much as it is professional,

because

the migrant.

Narrative is criticised

across the board.

And so you have to speak out

whether you're existing in an institution,

whether you're working for a charity,

whether you're,

you know,

working in a migrant organisation,

like you just have to

constantly reiterate where you stand on it,

because you can't just not because you're

staying neutral or whatever because if you're thinking about.

You know,

if you're really passionate or really committed to,

um,

the well-being of migrants,

that

also is included in that is you

coming out of your comfort zone as a white professor,

male,

um,

and saying,

you know,

all,

even if you just want to start your research,

just saying all the work we've done shows that this is horrific

and this is gonna have

bad consequences because it is like the people who we,

that we're doing research on now.

Who are we we're kind of,

um,

you know,

I guess you're writing papers on

are the kind of people who

who if they'd migrated to this country now,

would be the people in the hotels that that are being burnt down.

And we're seeing that they suffer from very

severe consequences that lead them to really horrific

social experience in this country,

but also

employment,

education,

um.

Mental health outcome,

everything is so

drastically impacted.

Um,

and I think that's where I kind of,

you know,

I feel different compared to others because they might be working on

a specific part of the brain,

or like,

you know,

specific big data sets.

But for me,

it's cause it's such a personal thing,

and I use my lived experience in that

and try and advocate for others as well.

It feels like

everything is just so combined that

I can't just go home and switch off.

I'm thinking about this all the time.

I'm like always trying to read outside

of just academic papers to understand whether

I'm not being funnelled into this,

and there's a very big like

sense of.

Guilt for me in that.

Am I being,

or that question for me in that,

am I ending up in this hole of like,

academia where all I'm reading is like research papers who

have been watered down,

and I'm not actually reading about

the blogs that people might have come write written about

their experiences or books that might have come out or

Other things that are happening outside of academia.

And so for me,

it's like a constant energy drain

of like,

guilt,

am I doing right by my community?

Am I doing right by others?

Am I trying to,

um,

do this work just as as much as I can?

Uh,

I think that's where race comes in to it the most for me in that

I'm just constantly exerting myself

in both professional and personal conversations,

and then,

um,

through materials and resources to make sure I'm

Really,

you know,

getting the right narrative across.

Thank you so much for like

being so open and honest.

um,

I'm gonna suggest that we pause there,

um if that's OK.

um,

let me

stop the recording,

um.

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Author

streetreporter

Post date

24/02/2025