Adelaide - Understanding Anti-Racism in Co-Production Spaces: Centring the Voices of Racialised Individuals

So first of all, um, can I get you to introduce yourself and tell me a little bit about you? Yeah, um, thank you, I think, for this opportunity. Um, my name is Adele Asanti, and um I live in Halifax. And um. The past 3 years after COVID, a lot of things will change, even how I go into spaces now and introduce myself, which for me is constantly evolving

Um, I have now found myself deeply immersed in the art space um as a multidisciplinary artist, um, but quite central to a lot of the work we do is the use of the lived and living experience, and for us that is also a tool that we are determined to use um in creating an equitable economy, so. I'm a social entrepreneur, um, but also a lived experienced storyteller. And um Just using diverse forms of creativity to promote social cohesion is what embodies our social enterprise, the ENT Foundation, as Senator Trema Foundation, under which we run our monthly lived experience storytelling session Anua

Um, there's a lot of rooms in a big house. And we have put things in sections like this so that it makes sense to us. Um, I'm continuing to grow in this art form, but for me it's also A sacred privilege to be able to hold and share not only my experience but others as well um in the spaces that we get to sharing, honouring my foremothers, women who would tell their stories many, many years ago and in whose inspiration we continue

To um practise the sacred and fine art of storytelling, yeah. That was really beautiful and eloquent. So this project's exploring um

Sort of what's the experience of co-production um at various levels that might be your own experience of being involved in co-production, delivering, facilitating co-production, being in other people's spaces of co-production. So what's your experience been as a person, as a black woman? Yeah, thanks, I think. As I reflected on this meeting, um, I was very, very determined to come into this space with some questions as well, because, um, and perhaps as the conversation unfolds, we would better understand

That for me that we, it's important to always ask um that that question, what do you mean? Um, for me, I have found that. Although we can say co-production or live experience in different mini spaces, it will always mean different things. And so I've always been curious, you know, and for the purposes of this project and the conversation that we have

How would you define co-production? What would be your understanding of co-production coming into the space, I would like to know. So, um, very hard one to answer. So, um, when I think of co-production, what I mean is people coming together to solve a shared challenge or coming together because there's an opportunity to come together to celebrate something

Typically the work that we do is around social change, so how we use everyday stories, lived and living experienced stories to create a different um. In a particular place, with a particular community, um, and that might be around a particular topic. So it could be around housing, well-being, mental health

Very great question to around, uh, how we defining co-production. So most of the major institutions will probably have a definition, and they, and they'd probably be like people who live and learn experiences coming together to co-develop and co-create something. Um, That's not necessarily how I would see it in in My world, um, but I think it's important to put that out there, um

I'm thinking about the spaces that we invite people to come and be alongside us and be involved in the work that we do if that's from an arts perspective, if that's from a research perspective, if that's from a local government perspective, that for me really sums up co-production is where those that know best because of their lived experiences are helping systems, policy, developers, art spaces really do their best because they are centering it around the needs of people. Mhm. Yeah

And That was important for me because a lot of my understanding going into this space is deeply centred around the lived experience and the next steps, which for me comes to co-production, but it was important to ask that because quite often you get beautiful letters from places like school who want to co-produce with parents and co-create with parents, but they never reach out until it's Black History Month. Um, we've got a lot more to offer than black history, and Black history is British history, and that co-production and that invitation to get involved in our children's journey at school, I think that should begin beginning of 10 to the end of 10, not only in October, you know, 2 weeks only into half term. Yes

So that was really, really important to me. And I might go back and share some of my experiences. Shortly after the pandemic in 2020 we were here we were minding our business

We've always been here and they will call us people who were too far to reach. We wake up. And a man had died in America

This man, we didn't even know him. Later we found out his name is George Floyd, and as a result, we were being looked for. All of a sudden, our names will change from people who were too far to reach

Now they'll give us a special name, people with lived experience, and so they will invite us, they will invite us into their meetings, their workshops, their webinars, and their boardrooms, and even their ballrooms, they gave us awards because now these people have lived experience, we need them. But I was quite determined to understand what this lived experience was and own it. And it was my grandmother who said Saw cassari yiwei bonny, which means if you do not tell your story, be sure someone else would, and they might not tell it right

A lot of the work we do with our storytelling, the lived and the living experience, is underpinned by three main values of telling your story. But also understanding that. How our understanding of the world should be centred around the human story, but most importantly also acknowledging that our story will always be a shared story

Um, but most importantly, our shared humanity. And we tell these stories because we believe that when a people and their stories are forgotten, their humanity is lost. And so for me, the live experience was always going to be a very radical move, um, to present a new pair of lenses to marginalised communities whom for so long have been told that if you haven't reached this climax of civilization, you could never theorise on your own life and your own life experiences

It was only privileged people who So this knowledge system was abandoned. This knowledge system was marginalised, and so I felt the lived experience. I always saw it and I continued to see as this radical shift, a radical shift for someone to come and propose a theory and make valid hypothesis based on what they have lived their lived experience to challenge this hierarchy of knowledge systems

And present an alternate one, the validity, not based on years of academic research, but an experience for which they had lived. You know, um, but over time, The lived experience became a performance of trauma. So we need somebody who's um

Black African It's even better if they are disabled. Let's just find out if they are a member of the LGBTQ so they can come and perform their trauma, and then they can go. And when we are looking for people to hire, we can say that we want people

We've lived experience and we can't even mention that intersection we want, but not acknowledging that perhaps as an organisation that we've realised that for so long we have been doing this thing a certain way and now we have seen that we want a change, a change quite radical, that we want these people to come in here and offer. A new pair of lenses, a fresh pair of lenses, so that we can learn. The lived experience now was going to present

A knowledge system, a knowledge-based system, which we were going together, going to work together as a result, co-create, co-produce, bring something more new one together to serve this purpose, which we think that, you know, we shift things and present this perspective that we're hoping to see, this, this change that we're hoping to see, um, like EDIs, perhaps, um, The document has to be there. We have to be trained, but how does it become a working culture? Yes, it is a beautiful thing intent, but when does it become action. And are we bringing people to come and perform trauma and then we even overwhelm them the more

We bring them into the system that is already entrenched in racism and capitalism, and then we say, OK, there's one black woman and then hers is the burden to carry for EDR. So I, I realised quickly what this thing was, was heading to and A year after the pandemic, it was quite telling. Communities were lived experienced fatigued

The stories had been collected and collected and collected, and the question was, and then what's next, you know? Um, but we were determined to do lived experience as it ought to be done and continue to study. And and ask what it means to us regularly, even to say that I'm a lived experienced storyteller. What, what does it mean, you know, and Right now in our sacred space, we're championing a legacy project

And this legacy project for me. centres what lived experience should be for an ordinary cocoa farmer. To come And to sit with us and explore her lived experience at the end of which we are able to make this theory that cocoa and chocolate sustainability is not from the bean to the bar, nor the tree to the bar as we have been told

Um, by the, the, the, the systems that supposedly holds knowledge at the climax of a sustainable and an ethical chocolate story, it will always be from the beam to the bar or the tree to the bar. And this woman using her lived experience. now in the margins to propose this theory that it's not right, it's not wrong in the never change, it's not right, absolutely wrong because in an ever changing climate, chocolate or cocoa's sustainability should be

The C2C, which we define as a cultivator to the consumer. Now using her lift experience to challenge this knowledge to say that no. In this system we choose people over their produce

It is a nuanced story that does not focus just only on the cultivator, but everyone in the value chain or the value web right down to the consumer. That should be ethical, that should be sustainable. And for us this is how radical the lived experience should be and then going to places of co-creation

And co-production, some of the questions I have been asking, was it sometime this year there was, there was, there was a space like that to explore co-production and health. I think that was a programme that I partook in um as it was a joint something with the University of Huddersfield, and some of the questions I asked was um I think my, my experience as a black African woman in in healthcare in in any of these systems is violent, but when I share my story, I don't want it to be a performance of trauma. I am bringing a new pair of lenses

And so when you write your peer review, I also want to be co-authored. How do you even give back to these communities and their contributions into these spaces? And this is like labour that is invisible to make time to share your story and how are we valuing that? How are we prioritising that, you know? Is it always a case of refugees and asylum seekers? We don't want to be seen, we don't want to be known. And so in the end, a brilliant report is written, recommendations

are based are made based on our stories so we share our lived experience, our sacred lived experiences and then um we are not co-authored. We will get refugee and asylum seeker community of Code Dale or a reputable organisation like Saint Augustine's, you know, when the world tells this story, I want my name to be heard and seen and known. The people in my village, this woman who comes to challenge the hierarchy of Coco sustainability, she should be co-authored, you know

So these are some of the things I'm currently considering. Based on some of the spaces we shared with co-production, was it going to be a relationship of convenience like you might see in photos and posters were privileged communities go to places in many places in the global South, and it's always um if it's a lab project, you see a white person sitting in front of the microscope examining samples and 3 or 4 black people stood behind that. Doing what? Watching a woman watch a specimen through the lenses and what are they doing there, you know

So how, how, um, for me, this is also an ongoing, um, reflective journey into what real co-productions should look like. Um. Who is getting credit for the work? How are we coming into this space? How are, how are we even um making some sort of Is it like um some working agreement in this space? What happens thereafter with this knowledge that we have gathered and what are the possible outcomes hereafter? So I, I think that is an ongoing thing for me to continue to explore, but quite central to co-production and my lived experience, I want it to be valued as another kind of knowledge system, not an opportunity to perform trauma

Mhm. Absolutely. I'm wondering if you would feel comfortable sharing when you've been doing co-production, does racism of the ring turn up into those spaces? Hm

I think a lot of the time, well, since I, I tell the story of, just a second must be on his own. I just paused the recording, so I've started it again, yeah. Shortly after the pandemic, you know, I tell the story of how I, I noticed what the trend was of people who were for so long ignored because, and it's interesting that prior to we were the people who were hard to reach because we, we, we

We, we respond to emails. We are not the people are council who are overwhelmed with emails who say, you know, we respond to emails, we respond to letters, you knock on our doors, we open. So we were never in the first place hard to reach, but perhaps so easy to ignore

And coming to the realisation of how the stories were going to collect it and also realising how research was going to work a lot of the times in the spaces where At the end of the conversation, you're probably going to touch base with a researcher after tangibly, tangibly what you gave was going to probably be seen or felt after like 5 years. It was just ridiculous for people to sit in meetings for so long. But the thing is, I think, over time, People with lived experience also became astute just like myself, and we saw that the whole tokenistic agenda and so come, we'll give you food vouchers or something, and you know, it wasn't going to work because we have seen that repetitive nature of taking away from communities and Researchers just go, we don't hear from them, and by the time you realise a report is out and it will take another 345 years because before anything is actioned

By the time which most of us have moved on, might not even see or realise, you know, what that labour yielded in the space of what we gave. So I was very, very determined to own that space, but I can go back and share what it was from the beginning. It was very confusing and it wasn't too clear what we were giving in the space, why we were invited in this space, and it took for me a lot of learning and to really understand the value that was bringing into this space and to know that this is knowledge and an experience that you can't learn

You can't learn from school. Um, yes, you, you probably have heard the stories. Um, you would have read the books, but if you haven't experienced racism, you haven't experienced it, and this is how valuable this lived experience is, you know

So how was I ever going to go into that space and being mindful that what I carry is sacred. What I carry is, is Perhaps over and above somebody's PhD because they can study about what we go through, but they haven't lived it, and that in itself is, is beyond the qualification. Yes, I was, I was, I was quick to own it, but prior to it was, it will be another situation of come and maybe questionnaires will be administered and people not really understanding, we're not really understanding what the space was, what the invitation was, what was in for us, and what the next steps was, um, and in terms of racism, it's, it's

I, I have had experiences that has probably sparked a lot of questions because I'm, I'm always keen to say that and then what from this experience, what are the learnings and, and what can I do hereafter. I remember um during COVID-19. When I visit visited my local GP and And was lost to wait

The whole setup had changed and so you would wait out and be let in. And I took my little one for this appointment, but I was very tired. I was so weak, and I was asked to wait

I did wait to see where this came, and they went in before me. I started questioning, how do we prioritise people who are well. Whom do we give treatment to? I was there when people who was very fit came in, seemingly fit, came in, and they were seen elderly people came, they were seen, and I was there with my young child

I was tired and so, so lightheaded. The question was, what if I passed out right now and this child walked into the street. Who does this healthcare system prioritise, you know? And as a black woman, for me, I also want to think quite objectively about some of these things before I even, I even come to the point of looking around me and realising, oh, I've been stood out here for about half an hour and I was the only black woman here with my black child

Could it be there for, you know? And so what did the, the institution meant when they say Compassionate care. I wanted Compassionate care. And who was that care system prioritising at any point in time if all of us were ill? Is it the children first, pregnant people, the elderly? I wanted to know what the hierarchy was in terms of the need and showing up for an appointment, why was I seemingly ignored and nobody told me anything

And wait for half an hour, we'll see you, or doctors are busy. Nobody told me anything. I was left to wait and I was very, very unwell

You know, but these were the same people who call us and say, Health inequalities that we want to share the lived experience. What was the result of that? I wanted to earn my own lived experience and see how I could shape system effectively, not you coming in the name of co-production and taking my story away and me not knowing what happened there. So how am I coming into this space? How am I being involved and what are the next steps there really? This experience was very telling of

When people say things or organisation institutions, you know, bring out incredible strategies, but it's all intent and intent is never transformed into action, leaving that, you know, gaping hole over there of, oh, OK. So they said this, but really, um, um, and they haven't done as they, they, they said they would do. Um, also, shortly after the pandemic, there were a lot of spaces where we were invited

To come and share our experiences with racism and. Sometimes it was tough because. The question for me was

Why are white people taking over our stories? What is unnecessary crying for? And it was going to be very difficult to share some of those spaces with them. Yes, we will need to have those spaces where comfortable things will sit beside each other, but I also believed and learned from that, that period that I will also need some safe spaces where it was people who looked like me sounded like me, and perhaps we can mirror our wounds and find healing in those spaces, but quite often we go into Beautiful sessions to have conversations and you realise that it is your story that has been taken over by another race that has totally not experienced your thing and emotionalized the whole thing and It's not, it's not about you and what you're bringing anymore, you know. So that was also, I, I did not understand that

I did not understand that, yes, uh, a safe space will provide a room for people to let out all sorts of emotions, but can we focus on what we're here to discuss as well? By all means, cry, but what are the next steps? What are the lessons we have learned as they have shared the story, you know, and These were some of the very difficult things I, I, I came face to face with um. I'm a woman acquainted with discrimination. I am, I can even smell it when it's coming, but I'm always determined to say what have I learned and what are my next steps, you know, and I think that perhaps this is what makes me believe that co-production when done well, when done well, co-creation when done well, um

It's there to support communities, is there to make things better, is there to make everybody who hitherto was left in the margins, seen and heard and validated what they are bringing into the space, yeah. Uh, when you were talking, I just had this mental image of, um, somebody gave me a postcard and it said brown scars, white tears. And that just came to my head

How, how do we. Challenge people that can't see the very stuff that we're talking about. How do we create the very environments that you've spoken about

So what can we do to ensure co-production's more diverse, it's more safe for global majority communities, and the very things that you've talked about are centred in co-production. Yeah, this is, this is why I always say that um I will let the experience should come as a knowledge-based system. What stories have we shared, what lessons have we learned? What are the next steps? How do we um have it ingrained in, in, in workshops and seminars and meetings like we do? Yeah, it will always be an ongoing journey um to create that safe space and safe space also became a buzzword, um, but that was going to mean so many different things to so many people, um

It's always important to, when we, when we hold storytelling session at Africa, we say that is a sacred space, and I think that has a way of preparing people's mind. um OK. What is the sacredness of this space and what am I taking in there? Perhaps it's an invitation to listen more, immerse yourself in, and Go on a very deeply reflective journey after hearing somebody's story

Definitely do not agree with them on everything, but this is your story. Well how, how is it? How are we going into Reflections with that story and you might never understand, you might never live it, but how are we holding that story to us and going. And going into co-production, I believe that um I think a lot of preparations will be needed

Um, yes, for global majority persons and, and, as you said, people with a learned experience, and we can't do it. I think that we will lose a very important part of the work that we are so determined to do if we don't bring in that many diverse people in the space, the land, the experiences all coming together because I believe that that nuance is very much needed to give us. You know, the sort of outcome we want to, that is effective, but preparing for that space, um

Maybe setting some ground rules that we've all agreed to and Acknowledging people's vulnerabilities in that space, I think is quite key, but also acknowledging that, yes, and in this space, we might not agree with everyone, but respect is paramount. I think all these things are really key and a core ingredient of bringing diverse people together and having conversations for one common aim of coming up with something that helps community, that helps organisations, that helps institutions. So I, I believe it is, is key

How are we going to this space? How do we want to embrace this space, you know, um, what should we look out for in this space? Um, and it's OK to say that sometimes you might find that the session might be overwhelming or triggering by all means to walk away. Um, we have For so long, a lot of our storytelling sessions were online because of capacity, but the day that I did the storytelling in, in person. It was incredibly overwhelming, and I realised that

Oh, the many people who will turn off cameras are not properly turned off because they have to respond to a need. But they've tended on because perhaps it's overwhelming and in that space in that face to face space to have somebody shout at the back of the room, yes, Adele has to tell her story, but obviously you all don't care. And another person to return, I do care

What are you doing about it to have this car? and the atmosphere was so tense you could cut it like a piece of bread. And to have this person shout from the back, you don't care. Another person say I care

I want to do something about it. I hadn't seen it before. Yes, sometimes we can only co-produce when we have these very hard conversations, but we need to have it because we acknowledge, we acknowledge that systemically

These injustices exist, you know, and it's not always going to be a very easy conversation to have, but I think that it takes a lot of preparation. We should be prepared to come into that space and believing that everyone has something to share and quite often. In in in such spaces, I also find that

Some people might need a little bit of support to be able I've, I've, I've seen you say this in some of your workshop, um, giving people the opportunity to lead and to own the space and to be at the periphery and supervising and providing support when called in. I think all these things are techniques and strategies that we need to go into this paper but most importantly, asking, asking. How do you envisage the space to be? What do you want the space to look like? And maybe the next steps, what I'm looking for co-authorship, not everybody might want that

It's important to ask and it's important to ask that, you know, what does this look for you? What does it look like? And also create an environment that we acknowledge that is an ongoing learning. Um, the document we have put together to support this meeting in space is a living document, so we can go back and see it at any time and give people that kind of reassurance that, um, we're here to tell a human story. It's not rigid

It is very fluid, it's very flexible, and so be open to throwing anything and let us know how the space can be welcoming and accommodating to you, but also bear in mind that um Very many different opinions exist and we have to probably make things work. I look forward to exploring this more, but I believe that the safest and the best co-productive place. Is one that the people who share in the space have said how they want the space to be held, what they hope to get out of the space

Just to say like, um, we, um, for some reason it's given me only a time limit today. It never normally does that. So what I'm gonna suggest that we do is that

Um, We think about how we come to an end here today, and then we regroup, um, in the new year. We've got a couple of workshops are inviting people back in to share their experiences, um, of the story that we've captured. We'd love you to be part of that as well

Um, so I've had so much, and there's so much to think about. I'd like you to have a think about this. So I'm gonna send you your story

Um, and we'll arrange logistics. Do you have any um questions for me at this point? Oh, not that I can think of. I'm, I'm, I'm excited with what you have, um, with the, with the work of co-production

When we have these storytelling sessions, I like to think that we're co-producing. Um, a lot of the things that I've been thinking about the past month has been a responsible storytelling, and I think a lot of that comes to co-production, and I've always been mindful of that. And yes, Africa will bring stories from global self, global majority, but How responsible is the storytelling? In the past few months

I've shared in reputable spaces, um, Fairtrade Foundation, Oxfam, all these spaces, and for me. Um, in my journey of also reflecting on reparations and what it means, I am mindful to say I don't want to be the woman who brought these stories for my family, vulnerable people into privileged spaces, and then what happened. I also want to take some of your stories, some of your reflections and take back to those people for them to say that, for them to even know that, oh, my everyday life or my everyday lived experience is challenging somebody's way of thinking

It's challenging somebody's way of seeing things. So I look forward to exploring this more and how I can also impact that to as best practise in what we do. Um, with, with how we co-create and share and share our lived experience story

No question at this moment in time. I feel that it's, it's going to be a learning journey and opportunity for me. I see

OK. So I'm gonna stop the recording there, if that's OK.