The storyteller speaks openly about their journey, the barriers they encountered when seeking help!

So first of all, what I wanted to ask you is like, we go back away, like could you tell me like a little bit about yourself, um, what makes you, you, what do you do, name. Right, so I'm Saida, I've been a lived experience expert advisor, whatever you wanna call it, the latest label at the moment, um. Working in capacity of helping researchers really bring research to life and actually make an impact at the end rather than just do research for a better word, for the sake of research. Um.

We've worked a long time together, so you know we're all about co-production and trying to raise awareness around that and making sure that people are being honest and being involved in the research. As well as the professionals and not being used as a tokenistic method, etc. So it's been a hard struggle, er, still a long way to go.

Some places practises are brilliant, some places they're not, um. Yeah, and it's starting to take a toll, I guess, the work. It's tiring, uh, but we, I don't know, you just, you want to see it get better.

You see a little bit of progress, you go one step forward, but then suddenly things happen outside of your control, in the mainstream, and you see yourself going 10 steps back, and then you're kind of at a square one, so it's. Trying to keep the motivation to keep going and keep pushing through. I think it's the hardest bit.

Yeah, and we know like I launched this campaign on my forty-fifth birthday and like this is all around, and we've had this conversation over the years around. Mental health, suicide, all that kind of stuff, so I just like. I've had pushback today, some of them are feeling a bit, uh, you know, it's like glad day with somebody that I know gets this stuff.

So as a racialized person, do you feel like your experiences around mental health, um. And or suicide have been properly understood by people around you or services. Um, no, I think.

And that's a harsh reality. It is the most isolating experience you will ever go through in your life, despite having male, you know, family are well-meaning. They want to understand, they try to understand, but I think.

The idea or or the things you go through when you get to that point. Where you don't see a future. Making other people understand that is quite hard.

But then to come into a service where it should be your first point of call for help. And not receiving the same treatment as your other co-parts. Um, that, again, has a massive impact.

So, you know, we've done, I've done, you've done work around trauma services. I've done work around trauma services. And it's that idea of not coming across an empathetic person when you first attempt it.

And what kind of repercussions that has going forward, you know, people not reaching out to the services. Just one connection. Can make or break that for anybody, um, and especially for people from marginalised backgrounds where the community already doesn't accept you.

If you have any mental health crises, so you're on a back foot anyway. Then you end up in a service where you're again, put on the back foot because you're not white. So, do you really need the help? Are you privileged enough to have that help? Um, or is this just a cry for attention seeking, which I'm not saying is not the same kind of labels put on anyone that walks through that door with those attempts, um.

But I think for us it's a lot harder to then connect with the person that's on the other side and having to then explain yourself and open up, you just can't, you know, you already have a barrier up. Um, and over the years, has that changed? No. You know Crisis services, when you contact them, it's um, yeah, you can still, you still come across the same kind of attitude and mentality and response that, You get when you first walk through the doors.

So nothing's changed in my opinion. Um. Yeah, and we're trying to make it better.

It's hard and thinking about like you know when you say counterparts, what you really I think was referring to like our white peers when we've, you know, like we have a long standing history of um, you know, mental health journeys, etc. um, when you don't want to be here as a racialized person, like there's not even language like there's not even language because you've got, it's like I was. You're suddenly, um.

In a space where you should feel grateful. You know, you're thrown into that space of, well, you should be grateful you're in this country. I am.

I'm absolutely grateful I'm in this country. I've given a lot to this country. You know, I've worked, I've grown my kids up here, you know, my family's here.

I have given a lot to the community and things around me. Um, but it's that divide between, I'm gonna say privilege. It's that privilege of saying, Well, this is my country.

And then someone saying to you, no, actually, it's not where you're from. You, you can't say that, blah blah blah, so. And obviously the media narrative and all of that doesn't help either.

Um, a prime example, I was in a meeting the other day with my white counterparts. I'm the only Asian in, in, or someone from BAIM community in that meeting. And everything that was being discussed and said, you know, when my, my white counterpart was speaking, everyone was being very much attentive, listening to what was said and responding, you know, etc.

When I raised an opinion or said something, it was just, you know, washed over. There was no comeback, there was no, no dialogue, nothing, and when you still have those kind of spaces, even after working in in this space for so long. You just sit there and you think, oh my God, like, what has changed? You know, it's, it's that there's no, the balance is still not there in terms of accountability and giving everyone equal, equal rights and opportunities.

You say something and it's like, well, you're just being ungrateful. If a white person says it, oh yeah, oh my God, we need to help them, we need to do this, we need to do that. So I don't know, I have this.

Disdain I guess, from all this conversation and it it is getting harder to manoeuvre in this space. It it's not getting any easier and I actually when I came into the work, I thought, OK, over the years, so much will change. But not saying it.

You know, at the moment, and it is becoming harder and harder to then be involved and try to make those changes. And even this conversation's hard to talk about. There are times that.

Have been so unwell and we've not wanted to be here on the planet, you know, like we, we, I, I will say this and people will talk, might disagree, but I have lost my mind and wanted to end my life and I've had to like people say to me, well just do it, like professionals. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you've just reminded me the last time I had my crisis, which wasn't that long ago.

So I was given the numbers to the local crisis helpline and I rang them up and they were like, oh, yeah, but if you wanted to do, you would have done it. Prime example of, like, the services haven't moved on. You know, I heard the same thing 15 years ago, and I'm still hearing the same thing 15 years later from a professional within the mental health service who supposedly is there on a crisis helpline.

You know, it's almost changed. And that, that to me, you know, I obviously we have experience now of the mental health services, so we understand how harsh the reality is. I think to myself, what if that was somebody calling for the first time? Mhm.

And they were reaching out for help, and they've just had somebody say this to them, you know, like, how do you as a mental health professional say that? Like, it just, it makes no sense. And it's just, it's heartbreaking to think that somebody who rang, would have rang up for the first time would then go on to actually attempt to do something. When they were told if you have this ideology or you have ideation, please get in touch with somebody.

They do the right thing and they get in touch and then they have that kind of response. What happens then? You know. It's just, yeah, it's heartbreaking.

And it's not like we haven't lost people because of that as well. Too many. Yeah, and it.

You know, I It's hard to reach out in the first place. When somebody does reach out, they need the right support in place to be able to get over that event or whatever happens that day. If you don't get that and you become despondent to the services, then you lose touch with the services, then you become, you know, dissociated, detached from the services, nowhere to run, nowhere to find help.

Then the only thing you've got left is all these ideas going around your head and you are gonna do it, and, you know, for some, it happens, it goes through, they're gone. On the other side, then there's no accountability. Mm So you know, the services are, aren't then saying, oh yeah, but it should have reached out.

Well yeah, people are reaching out, but you're not giving them the response they need. So then people have no choice, you know, and it's not just, it's not just around mental health, it's around social health as well. Being everything happening around people is affecting them.

You know, loss of jobs, loss of kids, blah blah blah. There's no joint services to help a person. It's all very disjointed, so, you know, people are signposted to different services that don't even exist.

You know, and then what do you do? You end up then doing the thing that you don't want to do, and you think to yourself, you've reached out, but no one's doing anything about it, so you might as well. And that might as well, like, is like, you know, ending your life by suicide is. Mm.

Feel sometimes easier than the pain of living, you know. It's brutal. It's brutal, you know, you.

There are obviously people have their own internal and personal barriers that stop them from actually taking the final step, and some people have that resilience in them, and they, they have those barriers. But if you're an individual that has nothing, no family, no connections. No one to really.

Stay around for Even if you have all of that, you can feel so lonely sometimes that you don't recognise any of that. So despite having those things around you, you're, you're not in that headspace to think, oh, if I do this, who am I affecting? You're not thinking that because you're just in so much pain. And it's dealing with that pain, that's hard.

Yeah, and also like that thing that you touched on around like physical and mental health, like we both have a lot of physical and mental health challenges and like, I think sometimes we joke about like how different we're treated like our pain. Like we don't feel pain, right? Yeah, no, no, we don't. I mean, you know my story, like with my heart, you know, prime example, you know, it was getting put down to anxiety attacks.

Oh, Saida, you're just having another anxiety attack. Take a diazepam, you'll be all right. You know, and 36 months later I've dropped.

I'm in recess, my heart's been pumped, and then eventually 10 days later I'm waking up with a pacemaker inside me, you know. Had that not been the fact that I didn't have those mental health diagnoses on on the system, then somebody would have paid attention and thought, hold on a minute, there might be something going on with the heart for this individual. But because we all, we have the stigma of having mental health disorders.

Anything physical that happens to us is put down to that. You know, I've got other conditions that cause pain all over the body, and I was told by a pain consultant, it's all in my head. And I was like, OK, let's just play your game for a minute, it is all in my head.

But I'm feeling physical pain. So how do you treat that? Forget the fact that where it's originating from. You may well be correct, it's all in my head.

But how do I deal with the physical pain? Like, you know, it's, it just, yeah, so you're constantly fighting a battle, whether it's to get help for your mental health or whether it's to get you help for your physical health. It's a constant battle all the time, and you do. Sometimes you think, why, why am I bothering? Why don't I just end it all and just be done with it? Like, what's the point? You know, and that's, that's the problem.

We get to those dark spaces in our heads and Yeah, it's Tiring, it's scary. Because you know you have the ability to one day just go ahead with it as well. That is within us as well, like we just don't know.

One day it will be like. Let's just do it. You know, we could get into that space, but.

Again, the barriers, like we're holding on to those barriers around us to not do it. But it is, it's getting harder day by day. And that thing around racism and all of the stuff and what always astonishes me, and I don't know if you remember the time that I was so unwell I was gonna like go to London and throw myself off the bridge.

And you and June had to intervene like because I was so unwell, but it was like two unwell people yeah. Yeah, but I, I think that's the point, isn't it, like. Regardless of where we all come from or.

What our stories are, whatever it is, when you get to that point in your life where you feel that low. A person who's experienced that can understand. And people that haven't gone through it.

They won't get it. Like, you know, your attempts are because of many various reasons, but that pain or that thought process that goes through your head at that moment in time. It's probably similar to everybody else experiencing that that thought.

So you do connect on that level. Obviously we all have different pain thresholds and different barriers that push us to that point, but the, the idea of just giving up or just not even giving up, the idea of just being, Tired of them being in that struggle. I think people resonate with that.

Everybody understands that, like you just don't have it in you anymore to continue, you know, and I think that's the main bit that everybody connects with and they can understand regardless of what has brought you to that point. That feeling that sits in you. We, we all got it.

We've all had it, you know, and me and June get that, you know, like, when it was happening to you, we understood, we, we literally could see inside your head and we, we understood what that meant, you know, at that moment in time, and I think. With everything that's going on around us, a lot more people are feeling that way, especially right now with all the austerity, the cuts, the racism, it's just getting out of hand, you know. Everyone is feeling stuck and marginalised and just not able to move on, and the confidence in people that you are with in a room, that's declining, like for me.

Every meeting I'm attending now, I'm just sitting there thinking, wow. Am I really hearing what I'm hearing, you know? And It's just becoming too much. It's just like, you know.

I mean, we've worked together, what, 20 years? 20 years now. Yeah. And like.

I think people are more emboldened than they've ever been, like, you know, like I'm hearing things now like I, I didn't even hear 15 years ago. Like today, you know, I was on a call and uh someone was like they had caused harm in other places just undermined and picked and pushed and prodded and. And what people were too scared to say is this person is being harmful.

Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, we've been in spaces where that's happened a lot. And, uh, my solution to that has always been to just let go and not be involved anymore in those spaces.

And I think I'm going more towards that now, like, especially right now, like, it's like, well, actually, I don't wanna be in a space where I'm not respected or put on an equal footing. We fought hard enough to get to this point. You know, we've fought for payments, we've fought for equal professional help or, you know, to be treated as professionals when we're in the meetings in the room.

We fought for all that for the last 20 years, me and you. And now to come back to this point and to be thinking, hold on a minute, all that work we've done, now you're reversing. You're going back to treating us as unequals, as people that just don't need to be listened to, or opinions shouldn't matter.

I don't want to be in those spaces, but you're absolutely right, the powers that be, or the people running these things are not speaking up either. Yeah. You know, they're not putting a stop to it, and they're not, you know, and.

It's not the worst of it, you know, people are showing their true colours now. Well, I'm getting now, oh you're sensitive and you're, you're doing anti-racism work you're the one that's always raising this stuff, so it must be you're the. Well, you're the problem, not us, right? And it's, it's just.

How do I say in a very. Political way, but it it it it is becoming a problem now to speak up about anything. You know, you can't, your rights are no longer your rights, basically, because you're not white.

Mm. And, and it's the other way around, oh, but the whites are being picked on. Which I get, like, there have been spaces where I've been where I'm just like, OK, no, this isn't right either, you know, there has to be.

My thing is, if you're sitting in your inner space, everyone should have an equal right to say what they want to say, everyone should be listened to, and it should be mutual. There shouldn't be us versus them or them versus us, you know, there shouldn't be any hierarchy. Like we expect to be on an equal footing with the professionals.

We expect to be treated as equals in terms of racially as well, you know, regardless of what, where we come from, um. But the spaces are getting smaller. Yeah.

The opportunities are getting smaller. And people are starting to become very, very, very open. With their feelings and what they say, and they don't realise the harm it's causing.

Language, especially, like the language being used at the moment, is so inappropriate. And I just have to do a double take every time I hear something and I'm just like, oh, I'm sure I didn't hear that right. And then I'd correct, like ask the person, did you say that? And they will repeat it and I'd just look at them like, do you realise the words coming out of your mouth right now? You know, and it is about making people accountable for what they're saying as well.

But again, if you're in a meeting run by somebody else, you know, you expect the chair or whoever it is to turn around and say, actually, that's not appropriate. That's not happening, unfortunately. And, and you know that we started our journeys because we didn't want anyone to take their life or end their life by suicide.

Yeah. You know so many people that have. Died by suicide that that and it's not even been registered as a suicide like it's been.

Washed over, you know, like we know that, we know this and. We know exactly what's going on, you know, and we just haven't got a platform to speak about it or say it outright, but, you know. All I'm going to say is a lot of the suicide is preventable.

They were more than. 80% of them were preventable. Had the services acted.

In a way they should have, you know, and. Unfortunately. Too many stories and too many letdowns over the years, time and time again.

It's like the same story, a different narrative. Yeah, diff same story, different time, right? Thinking about like. You know, our work in suicide prevention, our work as survivors, people that have been bereaved.

Have there been times where racism, discrimination, or not feeling like you belong affected. Your mental health or made it harder for you to reach out for support? Yeah, I'll give you a prime example. This was a few years ago.

And I reached out to the services. And this actually came from somebody from the same faith. As myself.

And this individual said, oh, you know, it is a sin. What you're attempting to do. Um, and you won't be forgiven.

And you'll go to hell. All of that kind of talk. And I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, oh my God, I'm sitting in a mental health institute right now speaking to a mental health nurse who is telling me I'm being a sinful person where I've reached out for help.

Um. And then it hit me and I thought, it's not just people. There are other races being racist to you.

It can be internal. It can come from your own community as well. And that was the first experience of it, and I thought, oh my God, like we don't talk about that enough either.

Like it can come from the same the same background of person as well. And then I had, you know, as a patient, I had nowhere to take that. Because who do I go and speak to, you know, they'll be like, well, she's in a mental health crisis, she doesn't know what she's talking about.

You know, it'll just be denied, outright denied. And then I, and it just, you know, I think to myself, how many people have gone through that? You know, so I did when I came, you know, when they thought I came to my senses, I did lodge a complaints and, and made them aware of the situation, but the harm had already been done and you know, it to me it was like. Well, it.

We want to make a difference, we wanna make changes, we speak up about it, but more often than none, the, the, the response to that, to correct it is often too late. And time has passed. So people are still out there being racist or being the way they are.

Without having any repercussions, and I think that's the issue. And being believed as a patient. In that process is even harder.

And did you see like. White peers being treated differently than you were. Oh, absolutely.

Absolutely. I'm not saying it's. Not like a red carpet treatment or anything like that, but.

When and when white peers come into this. The way the services deal with looking after that person. And being there for that person and supporting them through the mental health journey, it is a fast track process for a better word.

They will get the help they need a lot quicker. I don't know about now because I haven't been in touch with the services for a few years now, but that was my experience then, you know. And even I have been in, in rooms where.

You know, we're doing a project on ethnic minority. And most of the data being collected is about white people. So, you know, you raise the question, well, the project is around.

Ethnic minority. Women not reaching out to services. And most of our data is, 60%.

Is on white women, you know. And the answer was, well, that's the makeup of the area. You know, it, it's just.

How many levels do you fight it on? You know. I mean, I've, um, yeah, there is that, you know, like internalised racism, there's, uh, there's lots of stuff that happens. But there were lots of assumptions about our communities as well that.

We don't talk about suicide or there isn't support, like, so it might not be a community thing, but there are people in our space that we. I've spoken about suicide lots like. I think it comes down to the fact that, you know, there's always been an understanding that mental health doesn't exist in our cultures.

Like we treat mental health very differently, and that's absolutely right because. When I came, like when my, with my experience, it was like that, you know, the family didn't understand. But I think the difference is people educated themselves now.

There is a lot more awareness. The generation, my gen, our generation, the generation below us are very mental health focused. So they know everything there is to know about mental health, they know who to reach out to.

They are more in tune with mental health than we were. And I think we didn't have that exposure when we were younger because our parents didn't have that exposure. But by us, like, especially for me when I went through it, that was the teaching moment for my parents.

You know, they they started understanding mental health then. They probably would have brushed it under the carpet before that, like in many Asian families probably do, but. I don't think that's the case anymore.

People want to engage. People do reach out. I mean, especially around, you just have to look around Newham.

Majority of the services that are being used are by Asian people. You know, a lot of women are reaching out actually. In fact, in comparison to males.

We're still working on the males to reach out, but the, the idea that we don't want to be involved, or we don't want to know, learn about it, or we don't want to have anything to do with it, I think it's absolutely. A nonstarter now. You could have said that 30 years ago.

Because that was the case. But in the last 30 years, I think where people have experienced mental health. I think every family probably has somebody that's been in touch with the services at some point in their life, and I think that's where the education and the understanding has come from now.

You've got research people coming into research who are from Asia, more from Asian backgrounds than black minority backgrounds now, which wasn't the case before. So obviously awareness has gone out and people aren't being more. Understanding about it, you know, so yeah, I think it's moved on.

That, that dialogue has moved on a long way since 30 years ago. But do you think the care that systems give people who have moved on? I wish I could sit here and say yes. I really do.

And I think You know, deep down, when I came into doing the work. I thought to myself, yes, this is really gonna make a difference. You know, we're gonna go there, we're gonna advocate for patients, we're gonna be right in with the professionals who make the decisions, who know what they're doing.

And it is going to pave the way for better mental health services for all. And that was the goal, right? But It is, you know, things beyond our control. We haven't been able to see those changes, and there is really good work going on, but it's going on with charities who are doing it voluntarily in the areas.

And the downside to that is a lot of their fundings are gone. So a lot of them have to shut down and there's only a few left in the area now, and I think that's a real shame because they were doing really good work, really, really positive work. And I know the services themselves in the area are trying to do more reach out work as well.

So, you know, as they say, the tide is turning. Um But I think the constraints are due to funding, etc. Again, things beyond our control.

It is harder to, to do. Now than it was before, and I actually thought we'd be on the opposite end of it by now. Like I, I actually thought things were bad when we got into it, you know, honestly, I thought, OK, this needs to get better, right? But 20 years on, things are actually far worse than when we got into it, which I didn't expect at all, so.

But it is, it is the way it is, and we are where we are with it, um. We do keep. Keep going, I suppose you find it.

Odd, uh, I, a lot of people have said, I don't know how you can feel the way you do. When you've got a husband, you've got a lovely life, you've got all the things, and I had this like great conversation today, like, you know, you can feel so alone even with everything you've got. And then I was saying, well, I.

You know, not so long ago I had to pick up the phone to the crisis people. Yeah. Yeah.

The thing that I was told was, and I've, you know, I've always hidden away to go and have a bath, like feeling like. Aromatherapy, that will fix it. That that don't.

Yeah. I, I think this is the thing people don't understand. They really don't like.

Dissociation is a real thing. And when your mind gets so overwhelmed and so tired and so exhausted with things that are not in your control, you can't do anything about it. You sit alone in that room or at night, before bed, whatever, and you are in that space of complete silence and you're with your thoughts, that's when it hits.

And you do, you end up dissociating from the world and that despair, lonely feeling, you, you know, I've got kids. They could be running around me laughing their head off, but I won't be present in the room with them. Because I'm so into my own headspace and in my own thoughts at that point, and that I don't think people understand the loneliness of having.

These I'm not even gonna say illnesses, but thoughts. Mhm. It is very hard to explain.

You just, you cannot explain it. You could have. The most wonderful life, you know, no care in the world, no stresses, nothing, but you still can be the most loneliest person.

Ever. And I think people just think, oh yeah, just you should be more grateful. It's not about being more grateful.

You are grateful. I'm grateful every day I'm alive, but. There is still that lonely part of me that still comes out.

That's still there, that's never gonna leave, you know. And having to build your resilience around that is a tough process. And people just think, I'll snap out of it.

You know, there are worse things happening in the world. Yeah, I get that. But they're not happening to me.

Right now in my head what's happening is happening to me and my thought process, so. Yeah, completely understand. And I think what also has changed is.

The, the way that. We're always told that we should be more grateful, like now you have to be grateful for everything, so like. Oh yeah, yeah.

Absolutely everything. Oh Saida, you should be grateful you have kids. Oh Saida, you should be grateful the NHS saved your life, yes, but then the NHS put me in that spot in the first place.

You know, like, I am grateful, you know, oh, Saturday should be grateful we got this. Yes, absolutely, I'm grateful, but that doesn't take away. The trauma.

Yeah. It doesn't take away what life has thrown at me. It doesn't take away all the situations that I've been in and gone through and the racism and all the other stuff.

It doesn't take away all of that. I have still lived through that. And probably for the rest of my life, it will be a reoccurrence in my brain at some point, you know, it's not gonna leave, it's there, it's there for life.

So if I am feeling a little ungrateful on a day where I feel low, I'm sorry. That's how I feel. I'm not gonna sit there and apologise for the way I'm feeling.

Because those were my experiences, you didn't go through it, I did. You know, and when people turn around and say, oh yeah, but you know, your mum and dad brought you here, they gave you a good life. Well, did you live in the 90s with me? Did you go through Pasha By Pay day with me? You know, did you go through all of those traumatising events? No.

So, it's It's hard to explain, like, yeah, I am grateful, but at the same time, all the trauma traumas are still there. And it makes it even harder now to, to say I don't wanna be here anymore cos you, when you're reaching out, you're telling me I have to be more grateful because you think that. We don't deserve it, like that's always I always get, like sometimes I feel like invisible, like they look.

Yeah. Honestly, and you think to yourself, why am I even here? You know, like, if I'm not here, then you say I'm not mentally well enough because I didn't reach out. And when I do reach out, I'm so invisible that you're just packing me away anyway.

So, you know, there's no in between. It's almost, it's the extreme of one end to the other, isn't it? I'm, I'm too unwell, so I need to be on a ward. Or I'm really well, it doesn't matter.

Even if I've reached out, no, you're well, you can deal with it. Like, there's no in between in any of that. So thinking about like that and you know, we know we're having these racialized conversations, so what would feeling generally safe, listened to, care for look like for you when it came to suicide prevention? And the commu like the community, what would it look like? I think the first thing would be not to to call somebody or be in front of somebody who's gonna turn around and tell you be grateful.

For what you have around you, or say things like, oh but if you wanted to kill yourself, you would have done it by now. You know, you don't want to be hearing any of that. I think empathy.

I always come back to that. I think people need to be more empathetic and listen and actually listen, active listening. Not just this case of I've got somebody in front of me who's attempted suicide, and they're just gonna talk, I'm just gonna pretend I'm listening.

No, actually listen to what's being said. And offer, even if you can't offer a solution, just that. Feeling of somebody actually paying attention to what you're saying and the pain you're going through at that moment in time can change the trajectory for that person completely and the outlook when they walk away.

You know, I've been in places where. I know they can't do anything for me. They are just gonna tell me to go home with a pill in my hand.

But I just wanted to have that opportunity to go and tell someone what's been going on. And sometimes just having that is enough. And not to be looked down on.

You know, and not to be treated as like you're not worth us. Listening to you right now or even attempting to help you right now, and I think that's just going on too much at the moment. Like people are just so.

Indifferent. You know, and it's, it's causing real harm, you know. A lot of people are just so.

Dishhearted That they don't, like you said, you don't want to pick up the phone. If you're having that kind of experience, then why would you want to reach out? You don't. You'd rather just carry on suffering or.

I'm going to try to top yourself. Or do something, you know, or self-harm even. Like, which is the other thing.

Yeah, how many. People do you think we know between us that. Have died by suicide because they haven't reached out.

That's a big number. I was like trying to count on my fingers and it just ran out. It's a big number.

And I think You know, the worst part is when you think they could have just reached out to me. You, you've sit with that guilt as well. You know, you think to yourself, yeah, OK, the service has failed, but they could have reached out to me as well, and you sit with that and.

Like I wanna sit here and say. Yeah, you know. There's not been that many, but there have.

The fact is there's been too many. And like I said in Logical sense for me, most of them were preventable. And when I was.

In my thinking around this campaign and like today I woke up like really worried about. Mm. If somebody's gonna come because I'm doing this campaign, the abuse will come, I know.

Um And people have been so generous, and I was thinking about. Well, our numbers are not there like. I would, I, I would.

Our deaths, um, our suicide, the numbers are not being counted because people in the, you know, like we know so many people in the family doesn't want it to be named as suicide. We know the numbers, like, I was just thinking like I can't count. Very deflated.

There is not The real numbers are much higher. Everybody knows that. They are very understated.

Um, The only way to bring them to light would be to then, you know, dig up another research project and, and actually go out there and look for those numbers, really. And look for for those areas, um. But you know as well as I do, it's, it's a tough thing to execute.

It's not gonna be something people are gonna back you on, you know, because it's not something people want to talk about. And they don't want it out there in the mainstream media. The reality of what is happening to people around us and what's really people are going through, especially in the last.

Fiscal years we've had with the austerity, etc. and how many people have had to do have. Just lost their way and take on that route because they just cannot take it anymore, you know, it's.

So many. So many people. Part of my fear was that us talking about we need the numbers recorded, we need culturally competent support, we need to talk about this stuff, that our white peers will feel like that we're saying that.

They don't matter. Yeah, but I don't think that that should be the case because you're looking at suicide as a whole. This is not about somebody being white, black, Asian, whatever.

This is about. A problem. Let's call it that, it is a problem that nobody is dealing with.

You know, so we're trying to find a solution to something that is causing pain to people out there. And it continues to do so. We just want to have a transparent number.

And we need to find ways of making sure there's accountability and processes in place so that number goes down in the future, not up. And the only way we can do that is if we have the right numbers in the first place. And when I was thinking of the campaign, reading the suicide prevention strategy 23 to 28, the lack of reference, so there were lots of groups of people recommendations.

Nothing very little about ethnicity, very little about race, and I just thought, does it matter like. No, you don't. Look, a very, very, um, Horrible way to say it.

But If you don't exist It's better, isn't it? And that's what these numbers are about, really, you know, and that's the strategies are put in place. To favour Certain side The only way it's going to change is by people coming together and saying, well, actually this is an issue that affects everyone. This is an individualised issue to one race.

Everybody is having this. We have data sets from all different marginalised communities. And we put them side by side next to.

The white community. But, you know. It needs to be looked at as a whole, yeah.

You've got the numbers for the white peers, but you haven't got it for the rest of the population. What does that tell you? How can you have a service in place that will help those people if they're not even in the literature? If they're not even being accountable. And you're not having that understanding of what's going on with that community or that race or that background.

You've got to have the numbers to be able to. Translate that into processes and being helpful. And Yeah, it's a tough call because you are gonna get pushed back on it.

Like, what's the need for this, blah blah blah. Hm. Oh, excuse me.

My hay fever's getting to me, um. But again, it comes down to the more we know, the better we can be. Mm.

You can't, you can't be, you can't better a service without knowing the facts. And until you know the facts, there isn't anything you can do. So by collecting this data, actually you're making the services better, even for the white peers.

It's not just a thing about ethnic minority background or people from different races. It's actually about making suicide prevention as a whole better for everyone. And that's the end goal, and I think people should recognise that.

Yeah, and, and building the space is built on like there is space for our voices as well as others, you know, it's not. Absolutely. Mutual respect, mutual understanding, mutual translation into processes, you know, you can't.

We all live together. We're all in a community together. We work side by side.

We eat together. We go shopping together, everything we do together. So why should there be a divide when it comes to certain things? Everything should be shared equally.

And everyone should be involved. Every voice matters as far as I'm concerned, you know. And it's, we, we're not gonna be the ones to say you can't come into these conversations because they affect, this affects you as much as it affects us.

If they don't understand what's affecting us and vice versa, nobody's gonna get to an understanding point. People are just going to be talking over each other or against each other. Everybody needs to come together as a whole.

And understand, actually, the services built right now is only favouring one side. We need a service that favours everyone. We need that understanding.

And those conversations are hard conversations. They're not easy, but they need to be had. And what is um something you wish people, organisations or services understood better about suicide prevention from a racialized perspective and our communities? I think they need to understand.

That sometimes when it happens to one person in the family, it's actually happening to the whole family. Our culture It's quite different If somebody's affected by something, it's like you've affected the whole area. Everybody's going to be involved in that conversation.

And everybody wants to know There is a lack of understanding, absolutely. But Something that gives me hope is the fact that I see more and more mental health nurses, students coming into the space. There's a lot more people from black and Asian minority coming into being psychologists, psychiatrists, mental health nurses, PhD students, etc.

It's on the rise. Everybody is coming, even child psychologists I've seen that are from. Uh, those backgrounds, so.

I think they need to understand, yes, there may have been a time that there wasn't much awareness, but that has changed. people are a lot more aware of mental health now than they were before, especially in Asian communities and black communities as well, because we all have somebody or the other that we know that suffers from it. In one way or another.

There needs to be a space for everybody to come together and talk about it. Because those don't exist at the moment. As far as I know, especially for suicide prevention.

And they need to understand if people have dealt with losing a loved one through that, that there is going to be a big distrust with the services. And it's not going to be an easy conversation. It will take a lot to get those voices into the room, so they need to be.

Patient, they need to be understanding. And they need to allow time for those conversations to happen. Um, sometimes people have a campaign or they have a research project that's 6 months a year.

But they don't have enough time to collect those voices in that time. Doing outreach, I mean, you know. Loneliness is one of the biggest, biggest problems in Asian communities at the moment.

And I think it's very, very misunderstood and underrepresented, especially. Asian, the older Asian generation. Whose kids have left the house.

They're all alone. They don't go out in the community as much as they should anymore. And they are isolated, they really are.

Um. And because of that, they're getting mental health. Issues, so anxiety, depression, whichever bipolar, whatever you wanna call it, all those illnesses are now coming to the front because all this time they've been too busy to notice their own mental health.

So I think I don't know how, but somehow. Communities and councils need to think about that. How do they create a space for the older generation to come out and speak to people about these issues? Because it is becoming a very prevalence in the area.

And there's no nowhere to go and talk about it for any of them. And does it surprise you how little reference there is to racial competency around suicide prevention? Absolutely not. Because we are traditionally coming from a background of mental health doesn't exist.

Um, suicide is a sin. Being this way is a sin, being that way is a sin. You can't do this, that's a sin.

So you're coming from those kind of. You know, our parents' generations and generations before that, that's their thinking, you know, they are not going to budge on that. That's the way they have been all their life.

If somebody's having an anxiety attack, snap out of it. Why are you behaving in that manner? If somebody's having psychosis, they are possessed. You know, and if somebody tries to attempt suicide, they've lost God.

So it's all coming from religious, cultural mix mix match of ideologies, um. Now, obviously. People are going towards understanding what mental health is, how it happens, what exists, childhood trauma, you know, childhood trauma didn't exist for any of these people.

They just saw it as a healthy upbringing. Now they're realising actually it was childhood trauma. So there's a lot of barriers being broken within.

The BAME community and people realising what mental health is. Um, so, At this point is the time to get those voices into. Being represented.

And when thinking about, so you answered it from like the human side, but this strategy, which is from 23 to 28. I I think I counted about 4 references to race and all of these groups and all these other recommendations and. Um, considerations, does that surprise you that the government strategy doesn't have an explicit.

Yeah, that really does, because what, nobody had mental health in that time? And didn't deserve to have help. And didn't want to get help. Like, how did that work out? Like, you know, there were more people probably going through crisis at that time than any, so.

As not having those voices or those recommendations sounds pretty inappropriate, you know, I know when I was on the unit. The um Um, I wouldn't say 60%, but at least 50% of us were from a black and Asian minority background. So, and that was during those periods of time you're talking about, so, you know, to not have anything in the literature.

To say, you know, we need to look at this group as well, and we need recommendations for this group as well is quite surprising. And the space around like suicide bereavement. Do like if you went to a space for bereavement or you went to a space for suicide support.

As a survivor or a breed person, do you see people like yourself in those spaces? Not really. To be honest, because I don't even think people know those places exist. They are just so hard to find.

And I think that's the other issue, right? Where are those spaces? Where do people actually go to connect, you know, you've got services like the mind, etc. that call them up, and that's it, there's no groups or anything or any like physical space for people to go and talk, um. I mean, I probably met, what, 2 other people during that that time that were also there, that came from a background.

Everybody else was. Why, you know, and again, it is around awareness of that service is existing, like how many mental health professionals are actually advertising those things. And actually it's a signposting people to those services, probably not many.

Not many of Yeah, absolutely, and thinking about. The future, like what would you want the 28. Strategy like the next strategy, what do you think the next strategy has to include, particularly from racial ass perspective? I think we need to have.

At some kind of policy in there. To actually help people. That come for help.

There is no network. There is no such thing as. This is a space to go to talk to someone.

This is a space you can go if you're feeling this way. This is a space you can go. It's all around.

Call a crisis helpline. Called Mind, call Samaritans, and that's it. Or present yourself to the A&E.

You get to the A&E, you're not even, you know, people are as busy as hell. Like, who's going to pay attention to somebody coming in with a suicide attempt. And even if they do come in with a suicide attempt, if they've cut themselves or whatever, they stitch them up, see you later, you're fine, we'll give you a pill when you go home.

There is no. There is nowhere to go. There is no support out there in terms of somebody to sit and listen or somebody to help you with plan the next bit so you keep yourself safe.

It is all around, uh it's. It's all around emergency response, isn't it really? If I turn up at A&E and I've swallowed a bunch of pills. Then they're gonna pump my stomach and they'll help me physically.

But that's it, then they'll throw me out the door. There's no mental health support that goes with that. So again, it's around two things, physical and mental health being joined together.

Having somewhere for people to call and actually have somebody listen who's who's actually trained in in being helpful. Like peer support workers, etc. Having a strategy in place, if somebody is coming in with a suicide attempt to a mental health ward or to an A&E, there must, there should be a process in place to help them.

Not just send them away with it feels like putting a plaster on her. Wound and sending them away. And actually having access to therapy.

You know, how long are people waiting? For CBT or 1 to 1 psychotherapy. You know, it's usually 2 years plus. I was Always conscious that we were told that we're not the types of people that therapy works for.

I have heard that many times, and my response to that is, well. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but you need to give me the opportunity to try. And fix myself as you'd want me to fix myself.

And you don't want me turning up at your doorsteps every six months, so. What's the solution? You know? The word revolving door patience, I'm sure you've heard that. You know, I said, well, you know, how would you like me to, to address that? And Again, I'm sure there's disparities in how quickly people access those therapies in terms of race as well.

If we were to look at the data, I'm sure you'll see the timelines are completely different. In terms of us accessing it and the white peers accessing it. You know, And I just, I.

I read a report the other day which said that. You know, people from black and ethnic minority background. Uh 20 months behind or something according to those those lines in terms of even cancer diagnosis and things like that, like.

You feel like you're on a back foot with everything. And you're not going to be believed and the rest of it, so. I think we need, we need to start paying attention.

We need to understand that if you want to help an individual, you, you need to help that individual regardless of what race they are. Or where they're coming from The services should be set up to just help people, not to automatically set up barriers as soon as you walk through the door just because you're black or Asian. You know, and I think that's the difference.

It's, it's. Another example, my mum needed a knee op, she waited a whole year. I have a friend who needed a neop got it in 3 months because she's white.

And you know what, roll their eyes when you say that as well, like people will like, whoa, like that, so. Yeah. Can I just like.

Maybe like Yeah, this is hard to say, but. Even the fact that the most strongest medications and the, the longest amount of time is all, like when we were in the wards, right, and I remember this, right, so I, I was trying it but I can't do it, but I don't know the statistics of Nuhan where like the area, East London, where we live. Yeah.

It's a very mixed, right? Yes. Say where I, when I 10 years ago when I did it, when, whenever time, there was a time where it was just 99%. Asian and black men on the boards.

Right? That somewhat hasn't moved on. And when like I was invited to kind of share my experiences, I've got nothing positive to say. And I was like, well actually, why, and I'm, I'm privileged more from being light lighter than.

Like some of the povious experience black men have received. Yeah. You know, that two people might have the same diagnosis, but one gets.

Detained for A year, the other one gets 3 months, it's like. And then you get gas lit around like how you're like seeing like you you've, you, you've, I don't know, I've told myself that's not true, like I, I want, I've always wanted to believe in good, but I can't. I can't see it anymore.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's I don't even know how to put it. It's just, you know, it's.

It's having prejudgmental ideas about the person you're facing, isn't it? You already got that in your head before the patients walk through the door or the person's walked through the door. And I think That's the danger. Because that becomes then a barrier to you actually helping that person or actually making things worse for them, you know.

In my experience, I was put on a certain medication that I didn't do well with at all, but you know. It, it was about, well, no, your mind is better on it, so we're going to keep you on it, no matter how awful it made me feel or the whatever. But it is that power balance as well, because, you know, you see that around you, you want to say something.

But then you're a mental health patient yourself, so how is that gonna then come across to the professionals? Well, actually she's saying it in this way because they've already got ideologies about us. You know, they already know we're in that space of mental health, so they already think. Not, not that we're not worthy, but everything we do say.

They can, they can always turn it around to mean something different. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, she's saying that, but that's probably because she has this diagnosis. Rather than actually she's speaking the truth or she's speaking.

Sharing an opinion, you know what I mean? Um, And yeah, in terms of the makeup of the wards and things like that, yeah, nothing's changed. Pretty much the same. Exactly the same, um, probably even worse now.

So I've got two more questions, right? So one is what keeps you going in moments that you find difficult? And the other one is, why did you want to share your story? I don't know, I'm mad. I think it comes down to that. I don't know, I think, I think, I think, you know.

The the idea of keeping going is purely because. I want to see a world where people genuinely can seek help without the fear of being knocked back. And without, you know, being told they're not good enough or therapy is not going to work on them, this isn't going to work on them.

We, we've done this and you need to try this. I just want a service that genuinely works to help people get better. And come out of their crisis mode.

And actually have a healthy life, if they can, you know, I mean, some pains you can't take away. It's never gonna go away. They're going to keep reoccurring.

The mind is a beautiful thing, it's, it's fragile, but it's resilient at the same time. So, you know, there are days, yeah, I don't even want to look at anyone or do anything or just, you know, I want to give up completely, and then there are days I'm like, no. This needs to be done.

This has to be done. It has to be this way. So yeah, I guess the motivation comes from that, just wanting to make sure.

That people don't hear the kind of things we've heard. You know, when you pick up the phone, although you could have done it by now. I want to change that.

That should not be the first thing a person hears when they reach out to a crisis line. I don't understand that mentality at all. I don't understand the scripture of that at all, and that even comes from the Samaritans, so I, you know, the people that are the first point of call usually.

When people want to go talk to somebody invisor, so I don't get that at all. Oh, I have forgotten the other question. What was the second question? Share your story.

I think it's important for people to hear stories like ours. Um, If it resonates, if it helps, or if it even points them in the right direction and not to feel despondent or disheartened. Because they've had that experience or they feel like they're alone in that experience.

I don't want people thinking that, and I think it's important for that. And especially You know, that feeling of being alone. I think most of us feel alone all the time and.

If this can help somebody feel a little bit less alone. I feel like actually I'm not the only one that's feeling in this way. There are other people that will understand this feeling.

There are places I can reach out to, people I can talk to. Even, even if it helps a person think differently. You know, just that would be enough, you know.

Just, just to have that sit sitting with them to think. You know, other, there are other people that would go through the similar thought processes that I do. And they're not silly, and they're not attention seeking.

They want help, genuine help, and they're still here. They're still, they're still striving forward despite going through all of that, so. Yeah, just that little bit of hope, I hope.

I can provide That was hard, beautiful, we haven't even much joy, like, like the amount of laughter we've had to create over the years to get through. Honestly, the amount. We've always seen the funny side of things we've gone through, right? We, we've always come out of situations and we've, we've made light of it, but they've been serious, serious talks and serious things that hit hard, but.

We've always found a way to try to be positive through it. And try to remain calm in situations and not, not give a reaction for the sake of reactions, um, but it's hard, it's hard, but I think, you know. I always say this to you, we bounce off each other.

You know, we do take energy from each other to keep going and keep doing this, because there are days me and you look at each other and like, can't do this anymore. But then we think, no, we need to, we need to try as, as much as we can and we keep going, you know, and. Yeah, we want to wake up in a world.

That's, yeah, that is empathetic and actually is really there for people. And hopefully that will happen. This campaign's gonna make it happen, trust me.

I know you can do it. I know, we're doing it. We're doing it, we're gonna do it.

Stop the recording there, yeah? Yeah.