Stuart talks about their experiences of suicidality, mental health, seeking support, and the role that faith has played throughout their journey.

So first of all, can I get you to introduce yourself, tell me a little bit about what you do, and then a little bit about sort of like what are your hopes, dreams, like what, what do you wanna do in it, what are you doing in the world and why are you doing it? Yeah, um, so I'm, I'm Stuart De so and um I'm a young-ish person. I still, I still, I still sort of grab onto that, hold onto that young, young person sort of title or um label that I've read for, for, for way too long now, and, um, so I've got lived experience of accessing mental health and physical health services, and I've got a degree in health and social care, a diploma in healthcare management policy and research. And I use sort of that in addition to my lived experience to work alongside small and I have to be honest, this usually just small ones because I feel like we can have personal conversations with small home care agencies or individuals who are passionate about um sort of project work and they're just wanting to get it sort of running. So recently I had conversations with someone who's, I've worked with her before where she's come as a participant in a lived experience project.

That I was coordinating on and now she's gone off to start her own sort of a piece of work within theatre, so working alongside her, just putting the building blocks together because that that project management side of it, the policy element of it and the research, so I've been privileged to still be able to bring things that I enjoy and then things that I've studied, going to university for that sort of build. A career out of, but then also being able to bring my own sort of lived experience to talk about my experiences to be able to help not just um when I was younger, I really wanted to make experiences different for young people. I was really, most of what I, most of my introduction or what I talked about was based on young people.

And then I got Around more older people and I realised that there there isn't much of a difference between our experiences. So we are, we are put into these um brackets or sort of compartments where almost like 16 to 18 or 16 to 25 and then there's um there's a imaginary sort of war between us, but then you can, you can find yourself, your experiences overlapping. You can find I, I was um 1617.

Sat in a waiting room um discussing sort of bladder conditions with a 45-year-old who was there for the first time. I had been there twice or 3 times or whatever, so I was quite comfortable within that space and then on the flip side of it, I've been um 30, turned 30 a few months ago and talking to someone who is 17 and they're telling me things that are blowing my mind about sort of uh social media being like connectivity and still being lonely within a digital world. So I think there's um experiences are are valuable regardless of age, regardless of.

Sort of where they're coming from, I think I I've come to an appreciation over the years of just being able to have conversations, stories, to talk about experiences. So I want to be able, like you asked me what I, so what I'm hoping for. I hope we're able to take time as a society, as a community to listen to what people have to say and to meet people where they are because um.

I feel like sometimes we dismiss, it's quick to dismiss, it's quick to judge or easier to judge when you what you don't understand because maybe you're looking at it from a 30 year old perspective, but there may be sometimes you need to. Sit down and then just let, let the story and take, take what you need from it, or take what you relate from it, whatever it is that that whoever it is that's delivering it. That was very eloquent and beautiful.

So think about those lived experiences, so. As you know, I launched this campaign on my birthday. Happy birthday for your 30th, which you kept secret.

Um, and this campaign is about the racialized experience of suicide prevention. So my first kind of opening question is, you've done lots of lived experience work, you're also a professional, you wear multiple hats, but as a racialized person, do you feel like your experiences around mental health, And or suicide have properly been understood by people or services around you. No, that's, that's a sort of straightforward answer to that, but um I feel like I've always had to, and one of the reasons why I've had, I feel I had to wear multiple hats compared to my white counterparts cause I do have friends who um.

Um, who are white within the space in Literspoon in space, and they don't wear as many hats as I do. They don't feel they have to to be able to be believed, to be able to be taken seriously, and I know this sounds like a broken record, but when we talk about things or when I'm reading literature around Um, if you are from the global majority and you are preparing to go to your, to see your GP or to go to see a healthcare consultant like health and social care professional, you're going to make sure you look smart. You're gonna make sure you can articulate yourself once you get there, when you get there, regardless of what level of pain I'm in, um, I mentioned my lived experience of physical health condition and mental health, so I've got chronic bladder pain, so constantly in pain, constantly on painkillers, and then you add the.

Um, mental health aspect of it which I picked up along the way from lack of sleep and everything else that was going on in my life, but I've always had to sit, sit still, like sit, make present myself as professional as possible and drop some um accolades to be able to be taken seriously, so I haven't felt like I've had. Um, it, I think it got to a point where I left her an appointment and I, I just felt like, oh, I could have not attended because all I've just said in there. He's describing me on a perfect day.

I don't recognise that person anymore. I'm 5 years into this diagnosis. I'm 5 years deep right now.

I'm, I'm starting to reframe my whole life, but then I'm having to go see this, um, health professional who is, um, usually white as well, and I'm explaining to them that oh I can't sleep so and so some days, and, but then the reality of it is I'm really struggling. To to keep the voices out or to keep the voices at bay, to, to just go through a day. I struggled to get to that appointment, I struggled to brush my hair, brush my beard and wear like iron clothes and whatever.

I wanted, I really wanted to wear joggers. I would have felt more comfortable in joggers and whatever, but then I, I know the environment I'm going into. I know um that if I show up looking like the um stereotype that shows up on TV that shows up on movies then.

I'm gonna sit there and I'm gonna look aggressive, I'm gonna look like the person who's not gonna engage with um the medication's not gonna engage with their healthcare plan, and I'm not gonna look like um a person who knows because around sort of mental health or health. So it's, it's a um it gets even, it felt like I've always had to perform. With their service apologies for the for the background noise.

OK. Can I just ask you about sort of like homing it into like suicide, suicidality, bereavement by suicide, like what's your experience around that particular as a racialized individual? Yeah, so, so then um thanks for, for adding that part. So I I think I I was I was talking about how I've had to pretend to perform.

So then, after I've painted this perfect picture of how I'm coping so well, and everything is great, I'm attending university, I'm. It then didn't make any sense for me personally, I think from a personal perspective when I started having um suicidal thoughts to be feeling that way, cause then I had sort of told told myself this story that I need to end at I think at that point I was seeing professionals, I was seeing a eulogist maybe on a Monday. I was seeing my GP on a Wednesday, go back to see the urologist on the following week to discuss the results from the previous week and then go see a pharmacist to discuss.

So I was always seeing different professionals and I then I had this story that I told which I felt didn't raise enough flags, just a pink flag. It wasn't a red flag, it wasn't a green flag, it was just in between and then people might look at me with some sympathy, some people might sort of ask follow-up questions, but. Um, it just always felt like I played it safe, so it was confusing to then, um.

Quite difficult, not just it's confusing, but then he made it even difficult to admit to myself that. Oh, this is, this is happening. This is happening more often than I expected and then I'm spending more time in bed because I feel safer there.

I don't want to be out in the world performing for the world. I want to just be honest with myself. I don't wanna be looking in the mirror anymore.

I don't want to stand to, and I used to have. In my uni accommodation, I used to have a mirror right close, right next to my door, so then I used to cover it with something cause it just felt like I had to confront myself. So I had um internal battle and then now thinking about when I would go to a professional to health professional and they asked me how I was, I'm, I've already got that story that I've rehearsed several times because I just needed to be able to get through doors.

To be taken seriously, to be referred to the place that I needed to get to, and then hopefully at some point by chance, I would meet someone who would take some time to sit with me and ask me how I really am, beyond the like beyond the, the story that I had sort of rehearsed so many times. How often did somebody sit with you to get beyond the story of not coping? Um, it happened to me once and this wasn't even, um, a health professional, it was my university tutor cos, um, he had seen me when I first started off uni, and he could tell that I was sort of, um, I would just become a shell. I would rock up, I would just sit there and, and then he asked me to come and see him after um.

After our our lessons and I sat in his office, he had a really like small office and we're talking a bit about football and then we started talking about whether I was going back from Southampton to Newcastle and how I was gonna go back and we're talking about that. And then he just, he stopped talking about that and he went. I mean, it's I've, I've seen how you've, you've been.

I mean, look at your, and I think one of the things sort of uh. Members of the global majority, men, uh, especially some men, um, well groomed, so your beard is shaved, all of this, um, and I used to have hair back then as well, so, and he's going, I mean, I can tell you um, you're letting yourself go in that sense, like how are you doing? And um it took me a while to To sort of break all of these, um. Routine that I had set up for myself where I would just sort of going to, yeah, I'm fine da da da da da da da.

I'm taking my medication, all these things and I just went, I don't. I don't know what's happening next. I'm struggling.

I'm, and I, I can't even sort of put a finger to it because I've told myself so many lies around how well I'm doing. I, I'm, I'm having to confront this and then I'm going to have to go home, um, and tell them that I'm not well, but then they see me as. There's a lot of pressure around um.

It's, it's not just survival, but the survivor is glamorised, um, my experience anyway. In in some families or some communities, so then to say I'm struggling, you need to be able, I didn't feel safe enough in my own community to say, yeah, this is, this is happening right now and so. Yeah, that was it, it took, it, it, it took a lot of um challenging myself to be honest.

And then once I sort of broke it all down, let my broke all these um sort of walls I put up for myself to protect myself. Allowed myself to be vulnerable, talked about it before. 2-3 hours in this office, cried a little bit and.

Yeah, um, the walk home was also quite, um, difficult because then I felt like, OK, so now I've put it out there. What happens next? Because I've, I've just told someone from university, I don't know where they're gonna put this and all this, but then also now, now do I, now can I go find my GP, try to get an appointment, try to do all of this, and those are quite hectic to get anyway, so. I, I, I, I went through the process of making myself vulnerable, and then there was nothing.

Then it was easy, it was, it felt easier to try and start and rebuild the story that I, the stories that I'd had for years, but then I couldn't do that anymore cause I didn't, I just didn't have the strength to do it anymore. So I let myself sit with it and just um ride the wave. He was lonely.

He was very, very lonely. I couldn't tell my peers. I couldn't tell uh my family because of it then.

Sort of sounds or these alarms or these red. These red flags and then other people do too much and then they take away, um, any control, any power you have in your life. That's another sort of aspect.

That's that I've experienced um which in discussion with um my white counterparts that are people with chronic conditions who are not from a global majority that they haven't had to give up. Parts of themselves to to either just get believed, so we're I then. Got to a point where I could talk about.

My different experiences, there was a lot of um. A lot of questions and a lot of uh doubts, a lot of poking holes at, well, surely you can't be that ill because you walked in into this surgery today. Surely you can't be, you can't be that bad because you made this phone call for for support.

Surely you can't be that bad. Since you're going to university and you just always, you then have to give more and give more and give more and sign up to different tests, sign up to different set of experiments, sign up to different things, and then you're just giving and giving and giving. And then maybe at the end of it, um.

There's some belief. Like people believe you and then um you get some sort of relief from that, but yeah, I just feel like for so long and I think up until um. I've sort of found my foot in um lived experience work and then it became a a job, a career for myself cause through some of that I didn't have, I was sort of confused on OK, so what am I, what can I actually do, what am I gonna be doing? How am I gonna put all these things together? I think up until then it just felt like um.

I had to always give up more than I had to like, oh for sure. I had to talk about like quite personal things. I couldn't go at all.

I don't feel like talking about that now because then I felt like if I lose this window, if I lose this support now, where else am I gonna go? I can't go to church. I can't, I can't, some of those places that are. Supposedly safe for the global majority and, and I don't.

I'm not saying they're not safe, but I cuz I've I've experienced the community in them, but then. There's certain topics which are a no no and suicide is not one of those um topics you can just bring up. Mental health, um, in general, it's not one of those topics you can bring up.

There's questions on faith, there's questions on. Um, sort of how much resilience I had or I have and. Um, what's, what's even crazier about all of this now that I'm talking to you about it, I'm just reflecting.

I was making sense of my experiences whilst trying to explain to everyone around my experience, and I'm not just talking about um. Sort of my white counterparts or the healthcare professionals or who were mostly white as well, but I'm talking about even people from the global majority who were still making sense of their own experiences. They were sort of seeing what I was going through and they were going, oh, so that's what depression potentially looks like.

That's what that looks like, so. It was, it, it did feel like a lot of pressure or it does feel, it still does feel like a lot of pressure to. To um.

Talk about my experiences openly, because then I feel like I'm I'm, I'm not just, it's not just me. It's there's a lot of people, there are a lot of people who've sort of been on this journey with me and it's been not just my own struggle, but. A lot of people have also had to carry burdens like help me walk down some parts sometimes or come up a cliff or things like that, so.

Yeah, and in all the conversations that I've had today to even just say the word suicide or not wanting to be here. It's really hard because there's all of these things around faith, culture, self-doubt, self belief, how we construct, and this um, I mean when you were talking I was thinking that um. I was always told like don't leave the house unless you look a certain way, you know, don't chat your business to people, etc.

So when I was really falling in terms of like not wanting to be here, to then say that to someone else, but also knowing that you could end up in. A mental health institution or you end up, it makes it so much harder to get that help. And I wanted to like move us slightly on to thinking about, have there been times where racism, discrimination or not feeling like you belong affected your mental health or hindered how you reach out for support.

Yeah, um, definitely, I think, um, I can't remember the stats on top of my head, but I know there's definitely. Um, As someone who's um who's black, like African, I'm more likely to get uh sections compared to my um to my white counterparts, I think. For, for some people, and I don't know, I know this is personal as well, uh, for different people, but for some people they look at that and then it's a stat.

It's just percentages or it's it's a phrase. It's something to reference in the report and then the report looks nice or it, it's out there and then you put it on page 5 if someone is flicking through your report. But then because I've I've um I've tried to access services, um, from the outside, I've I've um I've knocked on different doors.

I've And you can tell when you've been excluded because of um. Your race, your accent, um, you don't, you know, a British citizen and all of these things. And it's um.

It's, it's frustrating, but then it's, it also hurts in, in the sense that um we've got, you then leaves like for me anyway, I'll then leave some of these spaces. And then um go onto social media and it's post around Mental Health Awareness Week around all the work that was, all the good work that's going on in the community, and I can't, I'm not experiencing that because community doesn't, community does not count me as one of sort of, um, and it's, it's difficult because then you're you're, you're sort of being told around. Um, don't isolate yourself because that's the worst thing you can do for yourself and then.

It's, it, it gave a lot of mixed messages, mixed experiences, and they're not that many services that are. Tailored to just sort of people from the global majority so you don't, you don't have, if you're if the door is shut from your local um sort of service which is accessed to by everyone, then um. There's nowhere to go and I feel like that's how I started volunteering for like PPG's patient participation groups, um, and then the ceased clinical commissioning groups used to have those public meetings and I used to go there um on a Thursday afternoon or whatever if I was free.

I would go and sit not, not only for myself but then because I, I had experienced what it felt like to be excluded and um in the north, the north and south, the famous North and South. Of England divide, um, cuz I did my A levels. And part of my university in.

In the north and then I moved to Southampton. For sort of the rest of my university and then I came back and moved around the country, but I could definitely feel how different it was when I landed in, um, I used to, I used to fly between um because of my blood. But when I landed in Southampton, like the weight almost felt um less compared to when I was in the north.

I the north up up. The, the racism was quite um evident. It was clear, it was not, there was no um subtleness to it.

It was. And I think that's when Things became quite um sort of difficult to not perform the performance I was telling you talking about that you have to go present yourself in a certain way every single time, even though it's chaos in my mind. And then the diagnosis or the triage that happens is based off what I've said is based off how I'm how I present.

So then the scores I'm getting or whatever notes are being made, they're already inaccurate, so the care that I'm gonna get through the system, I would get to the end of it and go, yeah, I did come out, but. What was the point? And it's when you were talking. Yeah And this may not be the case, and please like correct me, but it's kind of like you're seeking going through something to help, but actually you're going through pain whilst doing it.

So it's like a double, you're educating people and you're being harmed whilst getting help. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, and um what was what was um what was what was interesting about that was.

When I first started, when I was talking about those PP PPGs and patient participation groups, one of the things someone mentioned to me, an elderly gentleman, was just like for you to get into this sort of line of work or into these spaces, you have to be prepared to go through harm. So you're not going to go through healing here, you're going to hear some things that are quite difficult, and I, I think I always. I never understood that or I never accepted that to be um a given cause then.

And I'm glad that I kept at it because what, 10 years on or so I'm, I'm around people who understand it and so I don't feel like I'm, I'm having to go through the same harm that I, but it, it was quite a lot of, there was harm, there was, I was educating myself. I'm, I'm having to go find The information that I'm. I'm going to be trying to educate someone else on, but then I'm also getting to, I'm reading this, I'm finding out about this service for the first time myself, so coincidentally, I then run into someone else who's potentially going through something similar or has got questions, so then I can just.

Sort of pass the information on, but then for me to get to that support, yet I've had to skip, I've had to roll over, I had to do some sprints and, and it was, um, it's, it's difficult, it's difficult to access services within a space or um a community. That's sort of weighing you down. That's pulling you back, that's holding you back, that's adding another hurdle.

You think, oh yeah, oh this is it, and then there's another one. You start, we start to have conversations about tailored services to have conversations where. Um, services can admit that, oh, we, we don't get it right when we're just supporting people from the global mogility, and then it's, oh no, but then it's one size fits all.

And like, hold up one second, we were just talking about, we've just admitted this and it, it seems, yeah, it was, it's difficult to engage in that, um. In that, in that space in in services like that, and it's even more so um. When I was working within them.

So when I was working in the NHS, when I was working in um sort of social care services, and I'm seeing that these are not. These services are I'm I'm not being designed um for me cause then when I'm going to A&E at night, um, so I'm, I'm working the 9 to 5 and then maybe at night I've got a flare up. I'm sitting in the A&E waiting room and I'm thinking this is.

This is exactly what I'm having to fight for um during in the day job and then as soon as I clock out, I still have the health condition. I still have the pain that I'm, but then I'm still having to to pick up a full-time job cos the advocacy is, is a whole. Jump on his own self advocacy and events that advocated for others, it's.

It's a lot of, uh, it's a lot of work, a lot of work. It sounds like it, and I just wanted to like. What does Racism, how does racism appear around like suicidality, suicide prevention, like, cos I mean, yeah, a lot of people I suppose listen to this episode will be like, so what, how, what does it look like? It's, it's being ignored, it's being told it doesn't exist, it's being told you've got no reason to, to be feeling like this.

It's being told you, you haven't accessed um services that we've provided, so you feel like this because it's your fault. It's being told um. That the services just don't have the capacity to, to be, to be sensitive to your experiences as a as a migrant, as a.

As someone who's black African, as, as um as someone who's not had access to a therapist who, who can sit with me in a in a way that understands my faith, it's being told that um I've added hoops myself by Um, being Christian or disclosing that I'm Christian or it's been so it's. Yeah, it's um, it's, it's all of those things and more that I haven't um. I haven't sort of gone into, it's it's ignoring them.

The multiple issues that are around, so we're talking about schools, justice, economics, um, all of, all of those things that are at play for someone who is from a global majority, as soon as they walk out of their house, but then even within their house, it's ignoring that all of those things have have an impact on how I process the world or how I experience grief, how I experience. Um, pain, and then what was. And coming back to myself personally, I guess what was painful for me was um to see how some of some people who were also experiencing chronic pain in some of the services I was in were being treated, were getting um being referred to all these places on the first go and then I'm having to come back.

And sometimes I used to tell myself no it's maybe it's because I'm young so I don't look like what I'm going through, which is. If we're talking about faith, it's, it's a plus, but then, um, in a service, yeah, you, it, it, it that means you keep falling to the back of the list. It's being placed at the bottom even though you've um displayed the pain, even though you've described your symptoms.

It's being um like not believed and assumption that I want to be. Uh, I just want to abuse different, um, painkillers or I just want to, um, avoid work. I'm lazy.

I don't, I don't wanna work. I just wanna be on benefits or it's being, it's all of those things being put first ahead of my health. That's how I think that's how um racism presents.

Can I ask you a question around so. The chronic long-term health of people. What impact does that, like, so if you're not being supported around that.

And you're falling through the, you're not getting the support. Does it Lead people to the places of really poor mental health, does it lead people to thinking, I don't want to be here anymore? Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely, I think, um, and it's, it's so quick as well how um. Surprisingly quick how fast you can get to the point, um, like my own personal study, I always, um.

I think this was 3 or 4 years into my diagnosis. I had had biopsies before. I'd had a catheter before.

I'd. So then I, I think. Mentally I thought, oh, I'm, I've seen it also.

I, I don't see myself crashing anytime soon. But then what, what I didn't realise was I'm always having to show pull up 150% to just make it through a day. So I'm doing this consistently for years and then there's no support around.

I'm not being sort of told about. Um, all these avenues that are around that I might, that might potentially benefit me. Maybe there was an assumption that of stereotypically or um a stereotype that.

Um, people from a global majority are always part of a larger community. Yes, the parties are nice, whatever, but then there's certain topics that are still taboo within that community. So the isolation, the loneliness was not sort of picked up upon.

So then I was I would get discharged from the hospital, I would go home, I would just process it somehow, but then I feel like it was just half baked, so then I'd go out and then we would repeat that, that cycle for, for a while up until I got admitted, had a biopsy, had a catheter, and then it was when they had to apologise, it was just too much information, but when they had to pull it out. Um, and this was normal, like you know, I'd, I'd had this done many, several times, and I was lying there and I could feel that something was starting, like I was starting to feel off. There was, there were, I think I'd reached my, um, breaking point.

But then because I had been brave all these years, um, high fived on my way out, for the nurses, went out, went home, um, went to lie. I thought I'll just slip, I'll slip this off, and I didn't actually fully understand what was going on then. And I realised that I'd been in these days for, for um a few days, and then days that got into weeks and then um.

It was, it was a routine procedure. It's something that was normal, something I'd experienced before, but then when you are running at that, when you're having to put in that much energy to just navigate. Life and um society and um sort of family and.

Um, not be the um. The black sheep, the, the, the, the one person who, who's who, who um, who failed to control his emotions and having to always be uh polite, not, not that that's a bad trait, but then it's sometimes you have to. You have to scream sometimes, but then if you can't, if there are no spaces for that to for, for all of the outlets without it being taken as, yeah, he's definitely on drugs.

He's an aggressive without all of this, um, it's, it's, it's, it's, you, you internalise it so much that it's, it eats you up. It definitely it eats you up and then. It you crash and everyone around you starts to go, oh, we don't know how he got there.

I'm like forget, forget the fact that he asked for mental health support two years into the diagnosis. It's almost ignored and then people start to crowd the current state and I think it doesn't really help because then they, you feel suffocated. You feel, if everyone's now observing you, the performance thing that I'm talking about, it almost feels like um When I when I watch.

Um, Animals from, from the circus or whatever, but the performances and there's bright lights, there's everyone, everyone's just sort of locked in on you and you want space, so then if you push everyone away at that point, no one is coming back, so you sort of have to give in and then you just go, you know what, let's just, let's do it. And what are you offering? OK, let's let's try that and then what are you offering? So it's, it's either, it felt like. Um, you take all the support, even what you don't need, but then because you might get taken away just as easily as he was brought around, you become, um, Easily pulled into different directions and there's a I, I feel like at some point there was a loss of self that I was just sort of within the system and I was just going with the flow, not because I felt it was the right treatment, but because I knew if I abandoned that, then that's gonna go on my record and those um.

We find ourselves talking about records. I found like this this is my friends and I, we find ourselves talking about records in terms of criminal records, watching DBS shows and all these things. But then as someone who has a health condition as well, like who's constantly looking at NHS letters, I've seen how A certain phrase can change the trajectory of your treatment.

So then I'm also conscious that I'm not just talking about a record, which is sort of a criminal record or whatever, but I'm talking about my health record. I need that to be my credit score is just as important as my, the letter that's going to come from my GP to the next person. I need to go there on my best behaviour as well.

So regardless of what the chronic illness is dishing up on that day, I still need to show up and. And be as professional, as polite as um as they can be, the best patient that I can be just to be able to get in. So, but yeah, I think um I went, I've touched on different things there.

No, but important things and I mean you've been around a bit, you've done a lot of work. How many do you think a lot of people. Um, and not here because they haven't been able to make it through.

A lot I drink a lot, that's why um. I'm, I'm grateful. To be able to to have been around, um, grateful to be able to meet.

Different people who were who had views or values aligned who were similar to which overlap or were similar to to mine because I feel like um when I when I talk about. And I'm, I'm, I'm guessing. Like from from that phrase that you used there like here.

I'm thinking here in terms of the people who, who've had suicide thoughts. And then maybe came, saw the other side of it. So I'm grateful for the support I got at that time.

Yes, it wasn't perfect, but then um my community really stepped up. My friends, my family really had to educate themselves um to get to a point. But then I also understand the privilege that came with my parents both have degrees.

Um, my dad is an engineer, my mom is a social worker. So they've, they were in positions where they could Um, afford private care, for example, when it really, really got bad and then I had friends who. Um, where.

We're quite flexible. They were kind, they took their time. So that that's, that's sort of one aspect of here for me.

But then the other bit which I think about um and I always talk to. It is sort of, it's, it's something that's within me and which drives some of the work that I do now and wanting to create opportunities for people who have. Chronic conditions, people who have um suicidal thoughts have come out on the other side and want to be able to share their story and be able to help others because it's.

There's a lot of um value or a lot of weight or a lot of power in listening to someone or um I mean I've seen the awards you've gotten yourself and I'm inspired by that. I'm motivated by that. Not, not only it's.

It gives a sense of, I know it's not perfect, the world that we're working, but then there's that, um, a sense of hope and it's regardless of how many times I've tried to separate the two and go, OK, I'm here in a professional sense. I'm still carrying that weight from when I was 21 and suicidal when I was. Going through navigating different systems, different spaces, so all of that comes into play, so I'm here, I'm grateful to be here in places or in in in spaces, opportunities where I can um disclose this as a career.

And then the here part, the other part, the here, the other, the last bit is the sort of the current state, so just to be involved in projects, campaigns similar to this which um allow me to share experiences and we ampl voices are amplified, stories are amplified to be able to reach other people who are, who might be in a different. Sort of position in their journey. So there might, some people are starting off, they've just gotten the diagnosis of just started experiencing suicidal thoughts or um whatever and some are sort of, does it end? And then if anyone is on, oh, so things have sort of settled down now, but then what can I do with every, all of this experience that I've had? Because you turn into a health navigator, you turn into Um, you're an advocate.

You turn into all of these things like these Jews that come, um, from the caves of suffering. I think it was someone who wrote that, uh, David Gilbert or something, um, I read it in one of his books. And there's, there's value in all of these experiences, but then if you don't.

Read about other people doing that work or doing using, using the experiences for good or using the experiences to inspire others, you don't, you don't hear about these opportunities um here from anywhere and I think the One of the things that's frustrating for me is. 10 years ago, I, I think I feel like I was saying the same statement around opportunities to get involved in pieces of work. It's like, oh, but then how do you hear about this work? And like if you don't get referred to by someone, then how do you actually find out about it? And then we'd go a year after a year after a year after, you know, like 10 years on, if I was to record myself 10 years on, I'd be going, oh, I'm, I'm almost asking the same questions and how do we, how do we get word or how do we spread? These positive stories, these experiences to to the people who need it.

Um, people who are, who are looking or who are reaching out for, I need something to focus on. I need something to give me hope. And that's what, that's, it, it might not be sort of the, the primary intention of it, but there's a lot of um inspiration, a lot of um Hope that's sort of tied into reading a blog about someone who's been through really dark times and then um come out on the other side and they're honest about their experiences, the ups and downs.

It's not um an easy walk to. And that here thing is really interesting because I was thinking about. That somebody somewhere is going to see this and maybe stay here because they recognise that somebody like them has been here.

And if I roll back 5, 1015, 20 years, I never saw people like me in the suicide prevention space or I didn't even know that I have the language to talk about suicide, like it just didn't happen. So I wanted to like explore with you, so what would feeling generally safe, listened to, cared for, um heard really feel like when it comes to suicide prevention for racialized communities? I think it's It's um It means someone doesn't have to go through years of struggling. It means um disclosure at a, at an early stage, someone actually opening up about the experience about how about how they're feeling.

It means um. It means I guess um people always sort of count the cost, but then if I think about my own experience of I went to therapy, some of it are self-funded, and then I went to the university counselling services, and then I went to, but then it, it took, it took a conversation that was. In my uh tutor's sort of office.

So if, if say for example, that had happened earlier on, then um we would have had a conversation. We would, I would have been able to. Be signposted or referred to the right place earlier on, I wouldn't have had some of the experiences I had with substances.

Um, I wouldn't have had. Um, the negative impact it had on relationships as well, like friendships and. Um, so dating and, and then that takes years away from your life, that takes, that really, um, messes quality of life, um.

And It's, it's not, you can't really measure it in, in, in a, in a way, but um. It, it then has, it has quite a. Um, a long lasting negative impact on people, pain and on itself, and I think.

When I, when I sort of talk to people who also live with chronic pain. Um, And they asked me how I distinguish between, so chronic pain for me now has become sort of part of my day to day, so that's just regular pain. And then the pain I'm referring to, which comes from not being, not having access to safe spaces, not being listened to, not being all those ingredients that you would need to be able to.

Have an honest conversation about um how you're feeling. For me, it's. It's, it's grief.

It feels almost like grief. It's so heavy on some days and some days I sort of manage and then gets really, really, really heavy, but then it's because the The thought of what could have been. If only that conversation had happened.

Earlier on Sometimes sort of floats through your head and even when you shut it out for for a while, it sort of pops back in and then you then sort of, well, I then go through the motions and then land on, OK, so now I'm focusing on where I am at the moment and then what, what can come from all of that hurt. What can come of that for not just my immediate family, not just for my cousins or just my friends, but then how can I, how can it go out there and like you said there it's, it's quite. When I mentioned my experiences to speak to, when I spoke about them openly, the feelings of suicide to my friends.

Um, there was, whoa, and then there was, wait, wait a second, um, I think I know someone who was going through something similar and we just shut them out because they stopped replying messages or they stopped. So understanding comes, comes easier or it, it allows room for understanding, it allows room for questioning. Because like you said, the, the language didn't exist.

Um, I wasn't looking at, I wasn't looking this up. Sort of 10 years ago or so, but it was only when I had experienced it and I'd sort of grown up, grown up or been around. Healthcare language or terminology and I thought, oh, I'm, I'm, I'm comfortable around this until it became, it became personal, until it became um sort of part of who I was until it became my own experience and I realised I'm paralysed.

I can't, I can't utter these words. I can't say it out loud. I know what it is, but then I don't think I can, I can put it out there for, for, for, for a long, long time, so.

Yeah, that's I feel like. Those things like what what they feel like being, being in a safe space, being it it definitely feels it just breeds or allows for um early early disclosure, early detection and er just early support. Like just not going through a terrible time when you don't have to.

I feel like we've we've had so many people now um. We struggle to find. The support that they need at the right time and then the impact on not just on themselves and on their families, their, it's wider, it's bigger than um I wish I could sit here and confidently say it only affected me.

It didn't. They, my friends, it changed, it changed a lot of lives and I think. If If we can appreciate that or take that um as a maybe if we recognise that or talk more about that, the wider impact, you might make it um a priority or put it out there more as well because maybe when you see it as 1 in 4 people, 1 person.

It's going to get, it's not, yes, I might be the one who has it, but then, or who's experiencing this, but I'm not the only one who is suffering. I've got a younger brother, I've got older brothers, I've got friends, I've got. Um, aunties, my parents, so it's not just me, it's who's counting that are the cost to, to those in my immediate family, but then the wider community as well.

Where is that cost being counted? And that whole thing around like you, you, you've managed to stay in so many ways and so many people haven't stayed and that cost of, you know, one bereavement, like I was, I I don't know if there's a statistic around this, but one bereavement, you know, like I was counting the other day, like just 70 people were impacted by that. One person struggling with their suicide experiences. I was counting and it was like, oh God, there's 20 immediate people dealing and affected like that.

Yeah. And that's. Racialised people I'm talking about that are already going through racism and other things.

Yeah. So with that in mind, what's What's something that you wish people, organisations, or services understood? Um, better about um suicide for racialized communities. So this, this is, this sounds really generic because I feel like um.

I think about this across the board, like when I'm asking physical health services, but then to just be believed, we're not, we're not here to play the system. We're not trying to, there's genuine distress behind the smile, behind the well dressed, um. Well, within the well dressed, um, mealized person that's in front of you who's been, um.

Uh, conditioned by the system to always have to articulate themselves in a, in a really professional way or else they get dismissed for being aggressive. And what sounds aggressive, I'm, I'm not scary. I'm not here to, to be aggressive, to be difficult, to be smashing.

Um, I am in need of support. Genuine support and um. Yeah, I think that's.

Yeah. That sounds like a very good and I and I'm sorry that there was, I think, um. Because I've had the geo diagnosis, it's.

I've had to face that. In in physical health services and then you sort of, I think naively, I thought, oh, mental health services, so these are supposed to be more conversation and this is supposed to be safer, this is supposed to be where I get the support and it's disappointing. I think the disappointment that comes from you go to try and access services and you realise that, oh, it's the same thing that's happening within uh schools, that's happening within physical health services.

And like the, the impact of um of racism doesn't just start and stop at the door of. Support services, so mental health and physical health services, it's out there as well, so it goes beyond. I think I, I mentioned this um with someone.

We both know um who's on one of the panels or the projects that we're on at the moment. That It's not just, I don't just Experience racism within co-production spaces. I'm experiencing it out in the real world, so when I'm talking about solutions in the co-production spaces, I'm talking about things we can take from here too because we're, we're um agents of change out there as well.

We're taking this um outside of this training to, to the outside world. I still need to get to Tesco. I still need to get to.

Sort of my GEP, I still need to have um to go to university, I still need to do all of these things, so. When I'm talking about when I'm bringing experience of racism, it's not just in co-production, this is racism that's happening in my life. Yeah.

And, and let, let me, and this is me stating this, is my own experience is that in co-production spaces it's been more magnified. Um, it's a closed group of people that you can't, you know, when I'm experiencing spaces in the outside world, I can run away, I can hide. I can't do that in co-production spaces because I'm there to, to, yeah, um.

Yeah, so I've got like 2 more questions. When I. Launched a campaign which was yesterday, um, and it was really because.

I didn't think I would be here, um, because of my own experiences, and let me, uh, not be dishonest and really be clear. Uh, when I saw my experiences were poor, but actually black men's experiences were poorer and actually, you know, I am closer to, I'm privileged from colorism and being closer to whiteness then it made me think about like, you know, there is a real big problem here around the racialized experience of suicide prevention. And I was reading the 23 to 28 suicide strategy.

And my heart dropped when there was no reference, or very few, 4 I think references, and somebody might not like what I'm saying and say oh there's probably 5, but there were very few references to race playing a part in suicidality, suicide experience, and bereavement. And I thought that just. Has not been my living experience that I have struggled, I've known.

Every Racialized person, global majority person that I know has as well. I have known more. globalised racialized people that have died by suicide.

And being let down, like, why is, why is this not reflected in the strategy, and I just wanted your opinion on like, does that surprise you that it's not in the strategy? Um. It's, it's, it is, um, surprising, especially cause I've, I've, um, I've been one of those people who've, who were really for the nothing, nothing about us without us when those campaigns were sort of um We're really getting pushed. But then it's also at the same time not surprising because then um how, how do I expect these stats to be a priority if people like myself are not even at the table when decisions around.

What's what's, um, what's to be published, sort of go out or what's controversial cause then that's the other thing that comes with um speaking about. Experiences of the global majority, there's always poli it always sounds like there's politics around it. It's almost like you can't say um this group of people have really poor experiences cause then it almost opens up um a conversation or challenges around, oh no, but then we also have poor experiences or how come they're getting the special treatment.

And I feel like I don't know what the service is. Or um policymakers or people who sort of publish strategies or reports. Have also found it to be a hot topic.

So the topic is now so hot that they're like, OK, let's just never, let's just brush over it. Let's put it at the bottom of page 28 and then hopefully nobody within the smallest font, and like hopefully no one ever touches that cause it seems like society or the system. Is not ready to have some of the conversations that I've started and it's actually quite concerning for me, um, if I'm gonna be honest here.

That if we, the progress we are making around transparent conversations about these quite sensitive topics. Is the system that we're we're trying to. That we're encouraging people from the global majority to engage with, ready for people from the global majority to engage with, because if then they, they feel this sense of safety that you can go um.

Drive change within your local um sort of service and then you get there and it's the worst experience you've ever had. You've now been dragged through a series of presentations. You have, you, you get brought in just to say a few words because you're the tokenistic um person from Global Majority and then you get put back on the shelf.

There's no support around you. I, I always wondered that sometimes when I speak to especially young people. As well that am I doing, how much good am I doing by sort of speaking about this? Yes, there's they are, I, I would appreciate the conversation, but then I know what sort of the system looks like or what the the system doesn't feel like it's ready to admit certain things or have certain conversations, so are we.

Are we potentially moving too fast? And then but like I, I, I don't know, like that was, it's always something that um that crosses my mind sometimes and. Um, because, yeah, the, the, the wheels have changed and seem to 10. So the fast enough in.

Like national services as well, so then if. If people are feeling empowered, um, not empowered, we're unlocking these talents they have to be able to be agents of change, to be able to do co-production, to be able to do. Uh, collaborative working within their.

So local services and the local services are not ready for for that. Then what happens then it does not just breed. Um, frustration or more frustration, is it more harmful than good.

Yeah, I don't know how, how I ended up on a question. I, I, I've got one final question, but I will just reflect back. My fear, and I'm not fearful today because I had so many people message me, is that me saying building the space for amplifying racialized lived experiences, suicide prevention, people would say, what about us? Yeah.

And my view is, and I will call on. The work that myself, you, Hanny and done, there is no hierarchy of marginalisation. So if we work on our challenge, we're also working on your challenge.

That's what I believe. But I also know that there will be pushback around. What about us, we have it worse than, and that's not how I see things.

So my last question is, and you might have some for me, um, is, so what keeps you going in moments of difficulty? Um, I think I, I did reference, um, when I answered the question about sort of being here. When I've met, I genuinely feel like I met a community at the right time. Um, I feel like I was starting to.

Lose hope I was starting to. Ask my find myself um really struggling after doing the work because then there isn't, there wasn't any. Sort of safety nets, there's no, they didn't feel, it doesn't feel like there's a framework to doing the work sometimes, so you're, you're going in and you're challenging.

Um, institutions that have traditionally done things their way. And then no one really sort of backs you up and I think that some of it comes stems from the fear of if I stand up for that, then what if someone asks that question or what about us? So um. Just seeing how.

The passion of other people really drives me as well, and. I think, um. It's not, it's not, um, stagnant, so there were moments when I was in a really dark place and then when I'm in a good place and I can look at, I look at the dark times or the spaces differently now that I'm where I am, um, if that, if that makes sense.

So like how I, I even interpret that or process that those experiences and I was, I was frustrated because um. The diagnosis wasn't wasn't right or whatever. So yeah, it's quite um.

I think that keeps me, that keeps me going and just seeing the, seeing the impact of the work cause um. Just hearing back from someone who is, who I've had a conversation with and they've gone out and they've taken some time to look at their situation and process it however way they look at it, but a different lens to, to, to experience is, is definitely something that That I that I feed off and it it it helps. It helps quite a lot.

And you mentioned faith, and I just wanted that you might not be comfortable talking about this, but like, I love the fact that you are so open about being a Christian and faith and how important it is to you. I mean, so important that you're travelling to Scotland, which is very impressive. Yeah.

Yeah, um. So faith is definitely, and I I feel like, um. It's not It's not talked about much with the sort of the global majority, especially if you start to get um unwell, and this is both physical and with mental health as well.

But for me, it's been um. I can quote a few Bible verses which have definitely helped me make sense of dark times and then um when I've come out to the, the other side and then processed what I've gone through. So my, my faith has definitely been something that's, that's been um Really, really important.

I've, I've held on to it. Um, it's been shaken. I'll, I'll be the first one to admit it's been shaking quite a lot, uh, because when doors are getting slammed.

Um, in your face and the system just feels like it's not moving. You're doing everything that you can to try and get the support you need, and nothing is helping. Nothing is, is, um, is moving.

You there's, there, there are moments where, um, I really, I really struggled with my faith, but then. It's It's easier to be, you know, well, I find it easier anyway to, to go to church if I'm in a better. Mental state and um.

I, I feel like when we know when I'm said about some safe spaces for. Um, members of the global majority, cos I, I think when I see some of the easy wins I've seen, um, in youth work, in community engagement, and like, oh if you want to go speak to, um, people who are Muslim, for example, go to a mosque. So then that's faith as well, so people, there's there's this assumption that people go to disclose these things.

In a church, but then I was going to church when I was when I first started self-experiencing and I, I felt like I could not bring it up. Now I'm older and I guess more mature within my own journey, faith journey. Um, I can talk about certain things, but I'm, I'm speaking on them not in the same space that I was years ago, so I'm not as, I'm not angry as angry anymore.

I'm not. Um, as confused anymore, I've got an understanding of, I've, I'veset with my emotions, upset with my experiences, and, um, permission. I think one of the things as well like, um, and this is sort of to anyone who's experiencing grief or um poor mental health, like there's permission to be able to, to, to share when things are really, really bad.

And that's, that's the truth. And then if things do get better, you can still talk about things getting better cause then I feel like sometimes when you talk about things getting bad, you, you then almost people don't, people might not give you the permission to then come back and go, oh, I'm, I'm really sorry. I actually really was, I was going through a lot like 20 minutes ago.

I'm, I'm a, I'm a different person now, so I think there's um. Giving yourself grace, I think that's something that's that's come from um having a faith for me. Um, I've had to afford myself some grace to be, to go through my dark moments and Go through the motions with the hope that I'm going to come out on the other side and it's all for a purpose.

I'm just going to say it out loud, um, the vest that I. That that sort of helped me quite a lot. Uh, it's um Genesis 50:20, and it's about.

Someone going through a really dark time, so though the enemy meant it for evil, the Lord has made it for good that many lives will be saved. And I think from that, when I heard that something sort of ticked within me and it's sort of linked to the work that I do now that I, I'm always keen to help out wherever I can. If I can speak to someone on a 1 to 1, if I can speak to a group, if I can facilitate a conversation about um different perspective just.

Getting people to see things from a different lens, process things from a different lens, even if I don't reach everyone within the crowd, within the group. Even though one person, cause I used to be the one person who's um. I was looking for that one sign or something to sort of hold onto and as easy as that can come about, I've also been on the other side when I was talking about the Catholic experience.

I'd had a catheter many multiple times, but then on that one occasion it was my. It was the last straw, and I found myself, yeah. Well, just to say my um my Bible verses are not as polished as yours and my faith is a work in progress.

But my very good friend Jude will be very, very much delighted. He's a theologian and um when I joined him, he always um has wonderful Bible verses. So thank you for sharing.

Um I just wanted to ask if you've got any questions for me before we come to an end. I guess, um, Cause I mean you're on the other side of this. You're the interviewer and you've had, I mean, how are you? How do you go from? Listening to to Stuart and then you're gonna go to someone else.

And then not allow it to, to sort of weigh you down cause I even I feel quite, I don't feel happy, but then I do feel like oh this was, this was quite um like therapeutic in terms of like letting it all out. But then yeah, like you just being on the other side of it, like how are you? Cause then I imagine some people who are in your position, not just sort of as an interviewer, but then the work that you do outside of this, this meeting that we have at the moment, you're out there and you're Always advocating. You're always challenging.

You're always um sort of pushing. How are you? How do you keep yourself going in that sense, and then what can, what can everyone else do? As well, like what is, yeah, what's the um. They could model what there's no secret, so I think um, such a profound question.

So one is I am someone that really. Wants to be good in the world, like I know that I'm human and I'm um, challenged on many levels because of my humanity, um or being human should I say, um, but these stories are, Really cathartic for people they say, but also learning and also permission for me to think back to all of those people that are not here, if they'd had access to a story like this, maybe they would be here now. Um so I always hold that in mind.

I have a wonderful support network. I have people like you that just say, how are you gonna go away from this conversation and think about it. Um, lots of community care and I talk about community because.

I Another colleague that, you know, very individualistic support is good, looking after one's body, mind. You know, the things that I eat, the things that I think, the the the sounds that I listen to, I'll go and have a bath tonight, I'll talk to a friend, I'll, you know, I have this space is a different space that I'm in today, like I've made this a space to hold this. Um, so I think.

I'm always learning that to do this work. There is a duality of lots of joy, but there's lots of pain and it's to to know when that pain comes and you need to talk or when you might need to say I'm gonna pause or I think. I will be very honest, I have been so humbled by how many people have come forward to want to support my campaign.

It has brought me to tears and I'm not a cry person, er Stuart, I'm not the person that cries. It's brought me to tears because I thought like, why, why, and then you hear your story and you hear, um Julie's story and you hear other people's story and then I've known people that. 30 years and I've never heard them talk the way they've talked I'm thinking.

No, this is important, so um I will go and look after myself tonight. I'm, my phone is always available to you, my email, etc. I think.

The way that we do our work is we centre care, we centre love and compassion, and that starts with the self and then hopefully the self, it radiates to other people. Um, yeah, and if I ever needed to know I can pick up the phone to you and other people have said the same. And I hope the campaign shifts from me leading it to it being something that we all lead together because I think this is a people's campaign around building that space because prevention built without us really does fail us.

Going back to that document, I just have that document in my head is like. I'm building a space, we're building a space and that space has room for everybody. Yeah.

Yeah. So, thank you. Um, likewise, I've just also, um, there was an email programme to send to you uh with a consent form and some safety tips and well guarded wellbeing stuff.

Um, so you should have received that already because it was, I programmed it to come to you. Um, on the hour, if you could complete that, and I'll be in touch in the next week or so. What are you gonna do to like enjoy your evening or go in with, yeah.

Um, so I'm gonna have, um, a late dinner and then, um, I've just started watching Law and Order. I don't know how I got into that, but. I just lie on the TV, I lie on the sofa, I mean, and then I have her playing in the background, and I'll be having a yoghurt or whatever, and sometimes my, my mom comes downstairs and um she walks in and and we we sort of stop her, but no one says a word, but we just make eye contact, and I'm holding a spoon with yoghurt, and she's like, oh, is everything good, like you're good.

I mean I've done them all, all Law and Order, all the different ones from California one to this one that I've watched them all. There's no more on Netflix left for me cos that's my kind of thing. Understanding people and why people do things, so.

Enjoy a lot and order, but um I'm truly humbled and thank you for this generous gift. I'll be in touch and um I look forward to seeing you next week. No, thank, thank you so much and yeah, it was good to, it was good to, to, to have this chat, and yeah, looking forward to next week as well, so.

Bye. Take care of yourself. Cheers, thanks.

Bye bye.