Wayne's Story

There we go. So that's started. Um, yeah, and I'll, I'll start by asking you to, if you'd, if you feel comfortable, do you want to introduce yourself a little bit before, before we start? Sure. Um, my name is Wayne Chapman

I am 57 years old. Um, I've been, excuse me, I've been totally blind all my life since birth. Uh, it's never held me back

As I'm sure you can imagine, I've used all types of different equipment over the years to make things easier for myself. And uh I work full time, I have worked in different places and right now I work for CAability. Uh, and I've been with the charity for 5

5 years, and for nearly 3 of those years I've been working in the recruitment team, recruit and support workers to live in our different support and living services. Brilliant. Well, it's lovely to meet you, Wayne, and thank you for introducing yourself

Um. Could you share a little bit about what equipment you use in your life and how it, how it helps you? Oh, now where do I start? Excuse me, I'm just having a cold. Right, OK

Um, so, I mean, um. If we are referring to non-technical equipment, I suppose, let's start off with that basis some of the basics. um, I use a white cane to get around

Um, I don't get those from social services, but I, I just think they just take so long and I have the means to actually pay for them. At least I can be sure that I'm getting more of what I want, because sometimes I'll just give you anything. Um, for getting around on, on a basic level

Um, I, in terms of brailing things, because I use braille, um, I have a braille damo gun labeler that I got from RNIB. That you can just like have have dials that you turn to different lesson on your labels that you want to do. And I put those on my washing machine, on my microwave, on my cooker, and indeed anything else that might need to be uh be labelled

Uh, to make it a bit easier for myself to live independently. Um, Also, I use um a braille writing machine uh because um I sing in my local Catholic church and both my partner and I were both blind and he needs braille and I need braille, so I do the braille every Sunday morning cause I get the hymn this by email, which I'll come on to more in detail, and I put those in braille every week so that when we get to church. Because as you may know, a braille hymn because in more than one volume

And so we have to know sort of what volumes to get out each week. Before math starts, um, so I use that. Um, in terms of more technical stuff now, um

On my work computer. I use something called Jaws, which you may have heard of, I'm sure. Uh, job access with speech

This actually makes it possible for a blind person to use a computer. So basically it speaks everything on the screen that I'm typing or either um emails that come in or icons, etc. This is further supplemented by a braille display

That sits in front of my keyboard, and again I can see the same information under my fingertips uh in Braille, so this way it helps me to work as well as someone who can see because the braille display can be useful for quickly checking the typos or layouts, etc. or indeed if I'm screening candidates to read uh the questions. And then obviously the jaws, as I'm typing the speech means that I don't have to take my hand off the keyboard to actually uh check what I am typing because I'm hearing it back to me as I'm typing

And that way I can work as well as anyone who can see. I also use a Polaris raille note taker. This I use again for work, sometimes if I need to admit meetings or indeed take notes as I am speaking, uh, or giving presentations, it just makes it easier than using PowerPoint on the computer

Sometimes I do also use for personal stuff. If, for example, I don't want to hear the speech on my iPhone, I can check my own personal emails in my personal account, not my work account using my Polaris, and it just sort of it it sort of gives you a break from hearing a synthetic voice, if that makes sense. Um, moving on now to, uh, iPhones and iPads and stuff

I have both of these, um. I use an iPhone for texting, for uh downloading apps, for booking train tickets, uh, for making calls obviously, uh emails. I use an iPhone with something called Voiceover

The beauty of Apple technology means these things are already built in, they just need to be activated. And so again, um I use voiceover to scroll down the down the screen and then double tap on exactly what I am looking for. Uh, this has revolutionised my life because I've got all kinds of apps on there, including Spotify, Trainline, London bus time, so I live in central London

So therefore I know that when the bus is coming, etc. um I also use. Um, both my iPhone and my iPad for, um, downloading, uh, content maybe of a religious nature, uh, different praying apps, etc

Uh I also use this technology to browse Amazon and make and make orders. Um, on my iPad, I also use it for playing games when I feel I want to relax after a hard day at work or indeed sometime during the weekend, and sometimes also for Spotify sessions, either on my own or with friends. One of the apps I have on my iPhone is something called AA, spelled A I R A

This is an app where agents are based in the states, they're actually trained to assist you and I might use them, for example, if I want to check cooking instructions, or if for example, I want to plan a route somewhere, if I'm out and about. In the street or indeed to access my posts at home, they have access to my camera and they can read exactly, they can take a picture of the documents and they can read things to me. Um, I also have another app called Be My Eyes, which actually um is similar, uh, but whereas I uh um IRA, A R I AIRA is a paid app and personal at the the better app

What I like to be my eyes for is if, for example, um I am uh wanting to know what's on a photograph that has been sent to me. Um, using AI it can write a description of that photograph. So I can almost pretty much actually appreciate photographs as well as anyone who can see

Um, plus being the kind of social butterfly that I am, I use my phone a lot, for example, for using Uber, for getting taxis, and that is brilliant, and they've really improved the app so much for visually impaired people now. Because what you can do is you can put on notes for the driver to say you're blind and the driver's 9 times out of 10 will stop and help you. Which is brilliant, it's really revolutionised my life actually

um, so. Uh, sometimes actually using AI, um, on my phone, sort of via being my eyes. Sometimes, um, I might get sent documentation working in the recruitment team, for example, regarding rights to work

Um, we have our work emails and Microsoft Teams on our personal phones as well as on our laptops. And so I can then, if, for example, someone sent me a photo of their share code, for example, if there's somebody from the UK and I want to check their rights to work, I can just use uh the AI via the B My eyes app and it gives me the exact information that I need, so I don't have to rely. On a sighted colleague to actually assist me with any of that

OK, brilliant. Um, so much there, it's so interesting listening to that. Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you

I think that's pretty much. Everything, I think. Oh no, I also use um a Google um

I haven't quite converted to the Alexa yet, but I'm thinking about doing the Amazon Alexa because the more I'm hearing. Um, the Alexa, I think it's far better, it's faster past Google these days. But if, for example, I want to sort of, you know, know what, what the temperature might be or even the time or to set timers, or indeed if I don't want to use my iPad for Spotify, etc

uh, I can just say OK Google, etc. etc. And it should by and large actually uh help me

Um I am also a linguist. So if for example um my French is pretty fluid, but sometimes I don't use it every day anymore cos um I'm not in a job where I'm using it all the time. If, for example, I might want to explain something quite technical to friends of mine in Paris who might not speak

Well, who, who don't speak English actually. I might ask my Google for the best translation. And um that seems to work as well

That's brilliant. You've you've touched on so many different topics there. It's so interesting listening to all the different things come up

Um, I think the first thing you mentioned was about like cost implications. So the fact that you, you, you buy your own canes because of the ones that get provided and. Well, what, what, what is the reason why you buy your own

My main reason is, is because I, I mean, social services, well, first, it'll take forever to get one. And secondly, they won't provide the top of the range ones that that that I like. And what, what is the difference between the basic? Um, differences, um, for example, like right now I've got, uh, a cane, um, that's called a no jab cane

So if, for example, you're walking in the street and say for example your cane hits an obstacle sometimes, um, it, it can actually, the rebound effect can be. That your cane unwittingly might sort of jab you a bit in the stomach. OK

Yeah. Whereas like these canes, uh, they're about 50 quid a piece but they're worth it with every, every penny because they have like a um a spring action. And so that actually avoids that and it looks it looks more dignified

And also it, it's less painful, to be honest with you. Well, yeah, that's important. Not not living with pain, isn't it? Absolutely

Absolutely. And the aesthetics of the equipment that you use that that I had yesterday, um, someone was talking about. Like aesthetics and how that's a massive part of people's life and people's choice and independence, having things that suits their aesthetic needs as much as the functionality of a piece of equipment as well

Oh, definitely, definitely. Sure. 100%

I mean, why shouldn't we have things that look nice? Yeah, yeah. And the, and you also mentioned like, um, How But the, the Faith side of things and the creative outlets that you have in your life, like singing in the choir, um, Yeah, what, what What kind of impact does that have on your life, being able to engage in those things because of the equipment that you're using? What it means that I can engage completely on the same level as everyone else. Mhm

And how does that make you feel? Makes me feel that I belong and that I'm respected and uh. I'm part of the community like everybody else, really. Yeah

More, more important stuff really, innit? Absolutely. Included. Yeah

And then. Yeah, definitely. And the work side of things, that's, that's something that you spoke about quite a bit as well

Do, do you wanna say? Anything more on that. Um, what I will say is that all my equipment that I use for work, um, is via access to work, so my jaws, my brothersplay, my Polaris note taker, um, that's all via access to work. Um, I'm due a Jaws upgrade at some stage soon actually, and I'm dreading the thought of going via Access to work

It's an absolutely lengthy process, it takes forever. I know it has to be done and and I and I do understand. That in the past they've had fraudsters because they have, and I do get that it's a bit more bureaucratic, but I mean when you just know what you need and if for example they've got you on their records, I just do not see why

They just cannot provide a service um with less bureaucracy and also a service that is more speedy to get this stuff. Mhm. So, so in terms of how

That service could be improved. What, what difference do you think could happen and should happen to make it more, to make it less bureaucratic and a quicker process for people to To go through I think if if for example um. I mean like work have said that they, they would provide a statement for me that I could attach to my application

But they're still gonna want to put it over to an assessor. Who may at least need to give me a call or who may even want to come out to see me, which is ridiculous. I mean, quite frankly, you know, it's there in black and white

I've used the service. I just do not know why it has to be so bureaucratic. Mhm

And do you get any any support with that in terms of Dealing with how frustrating it is. Um, not really, because it's just part of life, unfortunately, it's just not much you can do about it really. And I think something else that you mentioned was um with, with like screen readers and the equipment that you that you use, um

Uh The idea of like having a break from automated voices. Yes. What, what, why is that important? And, well, I just think, I mean, personally, uh, I mean, I, I myself, I'm a real champion for Braille and always have been

um and certainly, I mean, I was of an age where pretty much Braille was the only way you could read anything really, as a blind person long before any of this computer stuff came out. And I was always encouraged to read by my parents and by my school for the blind, etc. etc

and sometimes it's just actually quite nice to sit on the couch. With my Polaris note taker or with a braille book. And just actually read

All right, I'm doing with my fingers. But at least it means that I've not got to be read to if that makes sense. Yeah

I feel like the, the independence of it of being able to. 0, 100%. To do it for yourself

Yeah, 100%. And with, with, um, like relying on, going back to relying on, um, Automated voices. Do you have any choice in what that automated voice sounds like? Oh yes you do

Oh yeah, definitely, absolutely, uh, whether it's the iPhone or whether it's your own um laptop or computer, whatever, absolutely you do. Um, and that's great, but sometimes you just want to just not have it. And if you're able to sort of do without it, then I think you should

And what, as, as well as using Braille, is, is there any other? Equipment that you use that isn't based on automated voices and uh not really, not really. That's OK. That's the way it is

And you mentioned all the different apps that you have on your, on your phone, um. Yeah, is there, is there any challenges that you've encountered with with using apps? Um, Generally speaking, the apps I use are fine. Um, I think on, on, on, on the odd occasion there have been one or two accessibility issues that have been mentioned to app providers

Mhm. And to be fair, I think they've been actually resolved. OK

And so, so app providers quite receptive in terms of when you're. Some are, I think some are and some unfortunately are not. I mean, it all depends very much on how the app is coded

If the app is coded with accessibility involved from the outset, then 9 times out of 10 it should be fine. Yeah. And when doesn't it work? So like, uh there was uh an app I used to to use in the previous parish called Hosanna

And we've been telling them time and time again about how the app could be improved. And I know money is a constraint. But they just don't seem to want to listen about all it needs to do

It's just be slightly recoded because the buttons just don't say anything, it's button, button, button, which is really annoying so I don't use it anymore. Yeah. So that, uh, when things don't work, when, when equipment and apps don't work, you just find, are you able to find like an alternative or? Oh yeah, yeah

OK. So you just, you would just use something else rather than I would, I would, but it was a real shame because there was so much good stuff on there, but if they were this, then what can you do? Yeah. It is a shame

And they just say it's about money, but it's not, it's, it's about sensible design. Yeah. And is it like? When you've tried to feed that information back to them, is it you as an individual that's done that, or have you fed it back as part of an organisation or part of fed it back as an individual and also, um, our communications officer from the church also fed it back as well

On behalf of of of me and my other friends. And also just in general, you know, on behalf of the church, but it's not it's it's it's not been taken up. That is a shame

A massive shame. I do remember you saying about Uber and their design improving recently and that you've been able to. Add notes for drivers

What, what kind of impact does it have on you when Um, apps and things do develop in a way that benefits you and makes them more fit. So when I first started using Uber, I used to, if I was with someone, if I was by myself, or indeed with um someone who's who was blind like myself, getting like a taxi, um. There's two choices, there's various choices, there's there's UberX or Uber Assist

Now Uber assist drivers have had more training in how to assist people with disabilities, which is great. But if you want an Uber assist, you've got to wait longer for it. OK

Uh, because, I mean, what is good, whether you use UberX or Uber Assist, you can have the option, if for example you're standing outside waiting for your taxi. You have the option to actually share your live location and they see that as like a flashlight on their system. So that's really good anyway for for whatever you use, but obviously with UberX now

When you want to add notes for the driver, saying that you're toasty blind or whatever, it means you, you, you, you don't have to wait so long. You have the same service as everybody else. And I've never had a driver not want to help me

They might say, oh, OK, what do I do? So I just say, well, OK, if I just take your arm and you just show me where the car door is, I'll be fine from there on, you know. It's fine, absolutely fine. But I mean that, I mean some UberX drivers will be, will be receptive

Uh, I can't say I've met a bad one as such. One or two have not been as helpful as they could be, but I mean, generally speaking, it's been fine. But knowing that you've got that option now and you haven't got that need to have to wait

Yeah. To get an Uber assist driver. It makes a massive difference

Yeah, so I suppose the, the fact that they've got Uber assist is a great thing, but just having the line of communication with all drivers where you can say this is 100%. This is what support I need. This is how you can help me

Yeah, 100%. Really simple actually, isn't it? It's quite a simple, absolutely. It really is

And, um, I think, I think you, you spoke about using Google, like the OK Google speak things, um. And You're thinking about converting to Alexa cause it sounds like it's got better features. What, what is better about it? You can do more with it, it's more reliable

Google, Google of late is failing a lot these days. When the, when this whole industry started, Google was by far the better one. But now

But now, I mean, Alexa's far taken over. And also what you can do on on on Alexa being an Amazon product. Is you can add to your Amazon orders, you can make an order on on your Alexa

You can't do that on the Google. Whereas like right now I've got to browse the product and what have you on the, on the phone, using the app, which is fine. But at least with the Alexa now, it will tell you what the products are, and you can say add to basket or skip or whatever

It's by far better. So the browsing experience of someone that's doing online shopping, it makes sense. Yeah, exactly

I'll see what it does. And plus I'm also an audible customer for audiobooks, and of course Audible is an Amazon product. And again, you can play the audible books on your Alexa, whereas you can't do that on Google

OK. So it's just, it's having all of those. All those things together in one place

Yeah, absolutely. And then I think you, you mentioned as well being quite sociable and having friends in Paris. And, um, Google being helpful in terms of translating stuff to them

How, how often do you get, do you get to connect with your friends in Paris and how, how does, how does having equipment help that? Well, the thing is, I mean, I mean, I, I, I'm a fluent French speaker anyway. Mhm. Um, but for example, I was telling a friend recently about my job

A friend who also worked in a similar role to me, or a similar organisation. And I just wanted to get the exact French equivalent of some, of some technical terms. Mhm

And so I just asked the Google, you know, what is French for, and it would tell me. Mhm. So it's just, yeah, it's another thing

I mean, I could have explained it anyway, but I mean I just thought well no, if I can get the technical term, it makes sense. Yeah, definitely. So we, we, I think we've touched on all of the different points that we were looking at exploring

Have you got anything else that you want to share, um, or any other reflections you want to give? What I, what I really, really wish is I wish that more companies, whatever you're making, would think more about accessibility. Usability, accessibility. In fact, I wouldn't even call it accessibility

If they're making products and it could be something simple or something complicated. I think let's call it inclusive design for everybody from the outset. And when I say inclusive design, I also mean accessibility

Whether it's uh using a synthetic voice or braille, or both. I think that's, that's really, really crucial. I mean, for example, I love, um, a lot of nice aftershaves and a toilettes and aftershave balms and stuff like that

Now there is a French company and they've got a few outlets in London or or you can get their stuff from John Lewis and Amazon called Oxitan. Oxitan en Provence. Now what they have

As part of the. Design of the box. Is they actually have the name of the aftershave or perfume or or the toilette, shower gel, etc

They have it in braille as part of the design of the box. OK. It's not something actually added on, it's there

It's standards, exactly. Yeah. And that I think that is just so

So sensible. Yeah. I think that's something that other people have touched on in their interviews, the idea that equipment that that people have access to that supports their lives when, when they have disabilities

It shouldn't be seen as like an add-on or something that happens. It should be embedded from the start of everything. Yeah

Mhm. And that's why I'm saying inclusive design. Mhm

Definitely. It's really, really interesting listening to your experiences and, and how you, how you use equipment in your life. Thank you very much for, for sharing

You're more than welcome. Yeah, it's, I think, I think we've covered any everything unless you want to chat through anything else. 01 thing I forgot to mention is like watching TV, um, I've got a Freeview Digi box, uh, that actually speaks to me, that's connected to my TV

Uh, and so every morning when I'm having my coffee, my breakfast, getting ready for the day ahead, um, I will check and see what programmes are on that evening, for example, and it has a programme guide and I can set things to record or. Get information about the programme. Whether it's got all your description

Um, And that is really is worth its weight in gold. And is, is that something that's um Like we were talking before about things being embedded from the start. Well, this was made, um, this was kind of made with visually impaired people in mind

It was a mainstream product but then greatly improved to have the voice for visually impaired people. And can you watch like every TV programme on it, or is it only certain ones that have. Oh no, every TV programme and yeah, for example, if you, if your um if your Freiew box has that channel, you can definitely do that

Yeah. Brilliant. Thank you so much

My, my head is absolutely buzzing now, um, oh good, all of the experiences that you've spoken about, it's been really interesting listening to you, and I think it'll add so much value to the projects that we. That we're delivering and um, yeah, do, do you know what the plan is in terms of next steps of how we use people's stories? No, I've not been told that unfortunately. So I can speak you through it now, um, please

Um, so the idea is that we'll. As, as well as your story that you've shared today, we'll collate other people's stories, and they're gonna be, the, the stories in video and audio format, they're gonna be compiled into a short video that's going to be screened at an event in London in a, in a couple of, couple of weeks' time. Um, and, um

Yeah, so I'll go away from the session today and complete something called a story review sheet, which is a document that Allows me to pull out like the key findings from what we've spoken about today. um some time codes in, so it's got like the key quotes, key bits of information that's come out of um. You sharing your story and the experiences that you've talked about

Um, so they'll get fed into this short video that gets screened at this event in London. Um, and then we'll continue to do some more with other people, uh, about how they use equipment in their lives and what kind of difference it makes, what struggles they might face, um, what improvements could be made, made for the future, um. And then we'll host some online sense-making activities, which is, uh, it'll it'll be in the form of, uh, another Zoom meeting, and we'll invite people who have shared the story and other people that are interested in this, this topic of conversation

Uh, we'll invite you along to review the footage that we've gathered. So listen back to the stories, um, hear what other people's experiences have been like, and try and collect as a group collectively pull out the key themes and the key topics that have emerged. So, yeah, listening to what you have to say today, this, this, and comparing it with other people's, there's definitely some key themes that are emerging already, but that Um, sense-making session will be an opportunity for everybody to kind of come together and have and have their thinking into what key themes and topics might come out of it

And then we will create a longer film that compiles all of the footage that we've gathered, and then screen that at something called a knowledge exchange event, which will be, I, I think that's going to be in person. I'll go away and find, find and confirm that for you and let you know. Uh, and the, yeah, the knowledge exchange will be, uh, like an in-person event where people who've shared the story come together with, uh, people

That have lived experience of using equipment to support the life um. People in positions of power who can influence change within that, um. Sector and they will

Listen to the stories that have been gathered and review that footage that everybody's kind of collaborated on to, to compile and, and, and put into, into some themes, and then have a bit of a, a conversation around the, how that knowledge and all that information and all that. All those experiences can then go in and contribute towards some kind of positive change in the world leading to. Hopefully more, more equipment being accessible to people and to kind of streamline that process of people being able to, Access stuff that supports them living independent lives

Absolutely. Well, that's the goal indeed. But yeah, and, and you sharing your story today is going to feed into that

So I think that, that's the most important bit is people are, the people that are willing and able, yeah, the people that are willing to, to share the story. And Absolutely. So gene geneus in being open about, about your experiences

So thank you very much for, for sharing and for taking the time to. Ah, you're more than welcome. I've really enjoyed it

Brilliant. Well, I've, I'm gonna stop the recording and then.