Report transcript in: Caroline - Understanding Anti-Racism in Co-Production Spaces: Centring the Voices of Racialised Individuals

Please Report the Errrors?

First thing

You should get a recording sign come up and

can I get you first of all to introduce yourself

and tell me a little bit about who you are,

what you do?

OK.

So,

my name's Caroline.

I wear many,

many,

many hats,

as lots of us do.

Um,

um,

I am a community reporter.

um,

I'm a mother.

I'm a friend.

Um,

I'm really passionate about,

uh,

working with people who face injustice to have a voice and a say in,

um,

in the decisions that affect them.

And I think I've been really passionate about

that before I ever heard the term co-production.

Um,

so I started off as a youth and community worker.

I do lots of volunteering in my own community,

um,

and I now work for a charity.

Um,

it's kind of like a research charity and campaigning.

And so we are really embracing the kind of co-production movement and working,

um,

to ensure that people who are most affected by

issues are involved in the work that we do.

Um,

it's a journey,

so that happens at various different levels.

Um,

and then I'm also,

um,

I do.

Well,

I do lots of work in other areas as well,

so I facilitate,

uh,

citizens' juries and citizens' assemblies.

Um,

I don't know what else to tell you.

That is a lot.

Uh,

so if,

so what,

what's your

what's the things that you do that make you happy,

like where's your happy place?

Oh.

Well,

I'm a bit sad,

really.

Well,

I don't know,

I find it exciting.

But actually,

I just work and volunteer a lots.

So it's like being of service seems to make me happy.

Um,

and

I think any time where I've,

um,

managed to

Work with people who are often

oppressed or othered,

um,

and,

and work with them in a really caring

way.

Um,

it helps

people to kind of

realise things about their own situations,

which maybe they'd internalised as kind of their own doing or or or a lack of,

and then to realise that actually it is a societal,

it's a structural issue.

Um,

and that there are things,

doors that we can knock on people that we can

speak to and others that we can find solidarity with.

Um,

that brings me a lot of joy.

And then,

more personally,

um,

spending time outdoors and,

and doing things in community makes me

very joyful.

It's nice.

So you,

you said the word,

co-production.

What does co-production

mean to you,

and we're particularly keen on exploring

how co-production serves racialized people well,

like,

what's your experience as a racialized person

in relation to co-production.

So it's,

I think that's a really big question.

And actually,

since I've got the invite,

I've been thinking about this a lot.

Um,

because I've had lots of experiences where,

in hindsight,

I've

maybe been invited along because of my heritage or,

or,

you know,

how I look or how I speak.

Um,

And,

and then I've not necessarily been made to feel

welcome or like my ideas are valid or valued.

Um,

so I think co-production really at its heart is

a dialogue is people being able to share their

perspectives and experiences to achieve a better outcome,

which will

serve

more people in a better way.

Um,

I think for too long,

all of our organisations,

our policies,

our,

you know,

institutions have been designed and created for.

a certain type of person in mind,

and actually for lots of us,

the things,

the outcomes of that just doesn't work.

So co-production is about making,

making the world work better for everybody.

Would help if I could get myself from you.

when

you.

Talked about

Your

ideas and

kind of maybe being

um invited

in a tokenistic way,

like what impact do you think that has

on co-production or the individuals doing co-production?

I think it's really harmful.

I think as an individual,

so I spoke before about people feeling like othered or marginalised or whatever,

but I've often felt like that,

you know,

like,

oh,

she doesn't know what she's talking about.

And then for some people,

It really puts you off then participating.

It can put you off even trusting,

you know,

like a really,

and this hasn't necessarily happened to me,

but in a really harmful way,

it can stop people even trusting and

believing in themselves and their experiences.

Like when everybody rolls their eyes and they're like,

Oh,

here she goes again,

it's like,

it's really hurtful,

and it's

It's really

I think diminishing of the experience,

that,

that is your day to day.

Like,

this is how I feel.

I don't feel like this because I am paranoid.

I feel like this because people have made me feel like this.

Um,

I've forgotten the question now,

I think I keep going off on a tangent,

but yeah,

I think it's.

I don't know.

I think co-production is like a big flashy label that everyone's into at the moment.

But actually,

I think to do it well,

there needs to be values and intent and skills behind it.

And I think that,

um,

if you're not gonna do it well,

it's probably better not to do it at all,

because it can be really harmful.

And can I ask you a question about like that harm,

so.

Um,

and you,

you don't need to answer this question,

like,

but it's one that I think is,

um,

comes to mind,

so I think it's important.

So there's a lot of colorism,

or there is a lot of

sometimes othering people based on,

you know,

we're looking for an Afro-Caribbean or we're looking for South Asian.

And,

like,

as somebody,

um,

once said to me that they're in one of the conversations,

you know,

if you are fairer skinned,

there is lots of challenges that come with that in co-production spaces.

And I'm wondering if you've experienced any of those.

Yeah,

so I think,

uh,

sometimes people actually just assume that I am white British,

and I am neither of those things.

you know,

I wasn't born here.

I'm an immigrant,

um,

and,

and my heritage isn't white.

So it,

it.

I don't know how that impacts in terms of co-production,

cause I think those assumptions haven't necessarily been

made when I've been invited into a co-production

space.

But just in my day to day life,

or,

and certainly,

I experienced that in the health sector,

where health professionals might just make that assumption,

and actually,

you know,

as we know,

there are different

things that we might be prior to or that we might need made available for us.

Um,

Because of our heritage.

Um,

and then.

I don't know.

I think sometimes it serves me when people have made that assumption,

and it just,

they see me as an ally.

Um,

and then

other times,

I think people have felt,

well,

sometimes people have shown their true colours where,

you know,

they might speak differently

about,

um,

people of,

you know,

people of colour,

um,

if they think that they're in a room full of white people.

Can you give me an example of like

when people have.

Assumed

and what kind of like,

so have people been blatantly

derogatory,

racist,

like,

so how does like

racism manifest itself in co-production spaces?

I think where people have assumed,

um,

because I am light skinned,

it's more about like,

oh,

just talking about people in a way

that isn't,

well,

that's a bit dehumanising,

and that just like reduces people to their characteristics.

So like,

oh,

we need to,

you know,

we need to find 5 black people.

Um,

I don't know.

It's a really good question,

cause I think it's like,

it's not,

it's not explicit.

It's just like,

it's just a vibe that you get and you just think,

oh,

that's,

that's not OK.

It's not OK to talk about anyone like that,

really,

but it's almost like,

it's very much,

it feels othering.

Um,

But then I think the way

That it shows up in spaces

um more

visibly.

would be around.

Just assuming that you know someone's experience

because of the colour of their skin.

And

now that you're you.

I suppose like

the things that you've told me about your

joys,

the work that you do,

I assume that you,

you probably are doing co-production.

Look,

how what

and how does co-production need to feel?

For and like,

like,

so how,

so what,

what am I trying to say?

should I say like,

thinking about co-production for racialized people,

what do we need to think about doing differently?

What what needs to be

the way we approach co-production for

those that are from the global majority?

So I think there's something about decentering whiteness.

And so there's,

there's things about your language choice,

your outfit choices,

the choices of spaces that you use to hold your co-production

events.

I think there's something about,

um,

just creating

a space that feels.

Uh,

comfortable enough to be brave and to have difficult conversations,

and for people to be their authentic selves.

So,

um,

I try and do that a lot through the kind of group agreements.

So it's not about setting rules,

but it's about giving everybody the opportunity to say how,

uh,

you know,

what needs to happen in a space to make it work for them.

Um,

it's giving people permission to call each other in or out,

and,

and to have those conversations and to know that there will be support available,

whatever comes of that.

Um,

I think there's something about,

uh,

in your onboarding process or your recruitment process,

like,

you know,

is there anything that we need to do?

Is there anything that I've not thought about that,

that will make this a better experience for you?

How can I,

how can I help you,

um,

you know,

feel valid and valuable in this space?

And then I think

overall,

um,

you know,

co-production,

unless you're working on a really

Boundaried piece of work where,

you know,

there will be immediate impact,

which isn't really what I do.

I work on,

like,

the big,

tricky,

sticky challenges where

it might be 10 years before we see a change.

So I think the process needs to be joyful when it can be.

Um,

and I think we need to use.

Um,

different tools and techniques and exercises to bring out the best of people and

to enable them to share and contribute in a way that's right for them.

Um,

and

there's some things that I think about in spaces that I've

facilitated or that I've

Supported where actually,

even as a racialized person,

you know,

white is often my default.

So it's about

challenging yourself as a facilitator and inviting that feedback

for people to challenge your assumptions and your,

because often,

well,

I don't know,

I say often,

but I think people,

most people don't set out to cause harm and to be rude and hurtful.

Um,

but you only know what you know.

So if you can't create the spaces where people can challenge you,

how will we get any better?

But actually,

people can often be quite defensive.

Um,

racialized people often,

you know,

are tired.

They don't want to have to be the one that's always challenging things.

Like,

sometimes they just want to turn up and be made to feel welcome and valued,

um,

valued,

sorry.

yeah,

I think it just needs to be thoughtful,

reflective work.

And can I ask you about

the term

decentering whiteness,

we've,

I heard a lot about we need to have

conversations that acknowledge the historical legacies of racism.

And I'm wondering like about this decent whiteness,

how we go about doing it,

how we can be conscious of as a community of co-producers.

Yeah,

I'm also curious about that.

I am.

I don't know.

I think it's something that I'm mindful of,

but not always,

uh,

At the enacting stage,

um.

And it's been on my mind a lot because

I went to this apps.

I heard this amazing speaker,

and I actually can't remember her name,

which is,

um,

quite frustrating.

Um,

but she,

she was a black African woman,

and she was telling a story of how she read a book,

and,

and it wasn't until

quite late into the book where a physical

description was given of the main character.

Um,

she had read it and had assumed the entire way through that it was a white character.

Um,

I don't know why I tell you that,

really.

I don't,

I don't know how.

I think it's about giving voice to people,

you know,

like giving the floor

to people.

It's about having,

um,

a diversity within your team,

and that might be of experience or of,

you know,

different characteristics.

Um,

I think it's just really seeking opportunities to platform other cultures,

other beliefs.

So,

you know,

um,

I've been to some,

actually,

I've learned a lot from you,

Isaac.

Um,

I think when,

um,

you opened a session once that I attended with a poem,

and it was,

um,

really great,

but I think it's about the materials that you use,

you know,

who are you,

who are you?

Who's learning are you promoting?

Who's learning are you centering,

um.

Whose work are you sharing,

I think,

you know,

there's lots of little ways,

which is about bringing other.

Well,

see,

I'm saying it now other,

but thoughts and

ideas

that are not from white people.

Mm.

It's really important um and I've only,

you know,

privileged learning from other places

that if we only talk about

um.

Anti-racism or,

um,

the challenge of racism,

and that becomes the black of global majority experience,

then we deny,

like,

the wealth of stuff that they bring to the world,

music,

um,

poetry,

um,

science,

like all of the things that

have come from,

uh,

black communities globally,

we deny that.

And I think,

like,

part of the work that I'm trying to do is maybe bring some of that in.

But I do feel like it um doesn't always land very well with our white peers.

Um,

can I ask you about like what role do you see white peers playing in

trying to make co-production anti-racist?

Well,

I think it's really important because we're still

at the stage now where in most institutions,

you know,

uh,

people in positions of power and influence are,

are white people.

So everyone needs to come on this journey.

Um,

And it's really difficult

because lots of people do become defensive and do become,

and,

and it,

that kind of defence mechanism then stops any learning.

So it's about having long term relationships and kind of going back to it.

Um,

but for me,

at times,

that feels really frustrating cause it's like,

well,

we need things to change now,

so let's all do a little something,

please.

But,

um,

I think we talk about,

well,

I've heard the term white fragility a lot,

and although I can,

I can kind of,

I can get on board with that.

I think actually,

as humans,

we can be quite fragile and so it's just having that really person centred.

Um,

ethic for me.

Like,

we are all people.

No one wants to be told that they're doing a crap job.

No one wants to be told that they're perpetuating harm.

Um,

and if we want people to change that,

then actually,

we need to meet them where they're at also,

and we need to be prepared to have

those conversations.

We need to be able to share resources.

We need people to have the space that they need to kind of process and

ask questions.

Um,

Yeah,

so I think it's,

it's just really important to remember that we're all just human.

When you say like we're all just human,

how,

like,

that's a really lovely sentiment.

And I'm just wondering about how you sustain.

That

belief and feeling,

particularly like recently we had like,

nat you know we had big national expressions of Islamophobia,

racism.

But how do we

As people wanting to make change in in the world,

continue to have that.

I I suppose

love and humanity for other people,

even when things like

the riots happen,

even when,

you know,

we experience racism in that every day,

then we go to a co-production space and we experience it,

any suggestions,

any views?

I think that's really hard,

so when that happened over the summer,

I just completely shut down,

and I,

I felt

so much guilt and responsibility to have a voice,

to,

Provide spaces for others,

um.

And,

but I just,

I just couldn't,

uh,

I talked to my bed,

if I'm honest.

I just like,

it just,

it just hurt me on so many levels that I just couldn't process it,

and I just had to have a little shutdown period of healing.

Um,

and I was so grateful to all the people who took to the streets,

you know,

for anti-fascist demonstrations,

who people who shared resources and who reached out.

But even that,

uh,

In the initial moment,

that sentiment and outpouring of love of people checking in on each other and,

and checking in on me felt too much.

It was like,

I just don't,

I just want to pretend this isn't happening,

please.

But once that initial kind of sharp shock was over,

I actually really took heart in that.

Um,

Because actually,

in the darkest of times,

wherever you see,

you know,

wherever you look,

there are moments of love and moments of humanity and moments of connection.

Um,

and then moving to beyond that,

I just,

you know,

I went back to the,

the movements of resistance where people have faced.

You know,

absolute harm,

but I still kind of

risen and,

and collaborated and,

and fought for liberation.

Um,

so I think it's really important to kind of,

Take

Inspiration and courage from,

from the movements that are passed.

Um,

and I think it's also

really important to keep an eye on,

like,

where has this come from?

Because as easy as it is to say,

oh,

well,

it's these thugs,

like,

that's not where that unrest has come from,

you know?

There's like deep things that have been fueled and fed

and paid for.

Um,

and then for me,

then it's been about.

Like,

actually,

where are the opportunities to shake up um that dominant

belief or that dominant culture that is othering

people and that is feeding like division.

Um,

but I think the,

the thing that I took away from it is that actually,

there is room

for everyone's activism and inactivism.

Um,

you know,

just because you are a person facing racism and facing hate does

not mean you have to be the person to fix that.

Like,

that isn't on you.

Um,

And if you want to,

great,

and like,

let's join forces,

but also if you don't,

that is OK.

Um,

so it's about kind of holding each other

in a way that feels safe and that feels

right for whoever it is that you're meeting with.

you,

you've done a fair bit of co-production,

so I'm wondering about.

Like,

how much of the co-production

that you've done starts off with a set of values

and how much.

Attention's paid,

particularly when racialized people involved in it,

around the historical legacies and everyday experiences of of racism.

So I actually think that not enough space is given to that,

to think about that historical legacy,

but I don't know how

change that,

and I have been thinking about this a lot really,

because,

Um,

You know,

we each come.

No matter

where you come from,

where you grew up,

how you live,

we each come with our own understanding of things.

And when you're working on a

finite commissioned project,

Like,

how much room is there to explore all of these,

like,

historical things?

How relevant

are they beyond,

like,

not gen,

yeah,

well,

general awareness raising and like

building community and building understanding.

It's a balance,

isn't it?

It's like,

I'm not delivering,

uh,

a lecture.

I'm not,

it's not a present,

you know,

we're,

we're working on something specific.

So I tend to,

uh,

try and

weave things in as best as I can.

Um,

I will share resources for people who so wish to,

to use them,

but sometimes I wonder about that because there will

always be people who have capacity and interest,

and others who maybe just don't have the time

or resources to look more deeply around an issue.

Um,

so,

I don't know,

I'm really conflicted about this still.

Um,

I am quite excited about this new project where we'll be talking about,

like,

wealth.

I think there is actually lots of room in there to look at some

of the historical context of what has led to people's decisions about money now.

Um,

so I'm hoping to try and,

and play about with a few things and,

and glean some learning from that.

Um,

I also just,

you know,

I'm really lucky to be within a community of practise of great facilitators,

uh,

and people who care about these things.

Um,

and then also,

because I work across lots of different fields,

I'm really privy to lots of different bits of information,

which are often useful to share in different spaces.

Um,

So,

yeah,

and then I think sometimes the,

the conversations that you would have with a client

when you're about to embark a co-production project,

um,

uh,

give more room to explore some of those historical contexts,

and,

and to challenge people to think about within their own organisation.

How does it show up?

And even though you might not take it into the space with the participants,

because they,

there either isn't room for it or there's no appetite for it,

at least you're having that conversation somewhere.

Um,

Yeah,

I think,

I don't know,

I don't have an answer to that,

and I'm hoping that that might be something that comes out of this project also.

That really interesting statement you said around.

The white world expecting

global majority black and brown people to always have the answer,

just sometimes is the kind of like norm isn't it,

we,

we have the answers and

I don't

think we do,

I think.

There's been,

I think for me,

like,

there was a moment in time

that surprised a lot of white people around me,

the murder of a man in America,

surprised a lot of people.

That didn't surprise me at all.

Um,

and then,

like,

things like the riots.

But I'm like in co-production spaces that are often about advancing equality.

And for the last 20 years,

those equality advances haven't come,

so I've always wondered like what

could we do,

should we do to make sure that

when we do co-production,

and if I was thinking of co-production as like an agent for change.

Then it really leads to people having better experiences.

I don't think we've got there yet,

I think we're still.

Well,

somewhat stuck.

Have you got any examples from,

like,

your facilitation world,

like,

so how many people do you,

how many people like you

are doing the kind of work that you do?

So a lot of people have said,

actually,

I might be the only,

um,

CEO that is a person of colour.

I might be the only facilitator that is a person of colour.

I might be the only co-producer.

Like,

tell me about you and,

like,

how many other people like you are doing the work that you're doing?

So I think in the facilitator world that I occupy,

I think that is very much a very white space.

Um,

and actually,

quite often,

probably going back 345 years ago now,

we'd be like,

Right,

we need to

diversify our team,

but we,

we didn't always know how.

So,

as a result,

so one of the organisations,

and I won't mention them,

cause obviously,

I've not discussed it with them,

but through one of the organisations that I've worked with,

we actually designed a facilitation,

um,

skills training programme

to invite some of our past participants to become facilitators.

So,

I think,

I think

that um

I don't know.

This might be controversial,

because obviously,

I really champion co-production,

but I think it's too slow.

And I think that there are other places

where we can affect change.

And I,

I pride myself on being that kind of agent of change in whatever space that I occupy.

So it's about the conversations that you're having

with,

you know,

and again,

cause I'm lucky,

I work for lots of different organisations.

I'm having lots of different conversations.

Um,

and also I've started to seek out spaces that are more diverse.

So when,

um,

if I'm to apply for a job,

I would always look at their board.

And actually,

it would put me off,

and I would have that conversation then to say,

like,

what's,

what's going on here?

What's the plan?

Um,

and sometimes those boards are a legacy,

and,

you know,

there is a plan in motion,

and sometimes they've never even thought about it,

and that's a big red flag for me,

because actually,

as much as I want to be an agent of change,

I want to keep myself well,

like you said,

we,

uh,

this,

this work is really slow.

It's it's taking too long.

And actually,

for me,

there needs to be joy and safety in the work that I do.

And so that might be taking the easy way out,

I don't know.

But in terms of self-care and preservation,

I need to be in spaces where,

where

lots of people are valued and celebrated and are,

um,

supported to lead.

So I think there's something about that.

And then there's something about,

um,

Yeah,

it's not just that it's like in the co-production spaces,

it's in the leadership,

it's in the facilitation spaces.

But you just mentioned about,

um,

obviously the murder in America,

and I,

I've reflected this summer.

So I worked for a really large organisation when kind of the movement

became more Eurocentric.

Uh,

I'll certainly,

um,

and,

you know,

in England,

we had lots of,

lots of activity.

Um,

and I,

um,

was really unhappy with the statement

that was put out by my organisation,

and I

spoke to my line manager,

and they were like,

Oh,

you know,

it kind of fobbed me off a little bit.

So I went straight to the chief exec and emailed and said,

I'm not happy about this.

That person then booked in a meeting with me and,

you know,

Placated me,

let's say.

And then was like,

Well,

what do you suggest?

And I was like,

Well,

it's not just on me.

Like,

I'm one person out of thousands who work here.

And also,

there are people who are getting paid far more money to deal with this than I am.

Like,

it's not on me.

We're in the middle of a pandemic.

I'm homeschooling,

like,

I didn't,

I didn't love that.

Um,

and then actually,

nothing came of it.

We had a couple more meetings,

and it,

it moved on,

and I just like,

held that resentment and bitterness inside of me.

Whereas the organisation that I predominantly work for now,

over the summer,

like,

So there was an initial weekend where a lot of the

violence occurred and some of that happened in my hometown.

Um,

you know,

we all had,

we had like a group check-in,

and we had individual check-ins.

We had,

um,

an optional meeting to draught the statement,

the organisational statement.

We were offered,

like,

various routes of support.

Everybody was told,

like,

they could work from home,

but they didn't have to.

It was really up to them.

But if you wanted to get a taxi to work,

you could do that.

Um,

And the,

the response,

obviously completely different organisation,

and maybe it's time,

maybe it's the people,

but,

you know,

4 years on,

was a very different response.

And there,

I felt held,

I felt valued.

I felt like,

um,

it just felt really joy,

not joyful,

that's the wrong word,

but it felt safe.

And,

um,

I think that is,

is a big thing because our organisations,

Want to do co-production,

but it's like,

how actually do you treat your staff?

How do you treat your volunteers?

You know,

don't,

don't take it all out into the world,

when actually internally,

you can't treat people with the same care

and values.

Although that,

you know,

there is something to be said about learning from

the engagement and facilitation of working with communities,

if there's a pathway to take that back up internally to then inspect,

like,

our policies and practises.

But that isn't true of all organisations.

Mm.

So,

and I'm wondering about,

like,

we,

we've got a bit of an idea around supporting a

small group of racialized individuals.

To not only be co-producers in the sense of

come and tell us your stories,

but be facilitators,

be researchers,

so we like strengthening,

trying to strengthen um.

A network of people,

but what value do you see in that?

Absolutely huge value.

Um.

Yeah,

I think that is absolutely,

you know,

the right way to go because it's

There is something about my co-production work,

where often,

because it is project-based,

you know,

I will work with a group of people and then that's it.

And as much as I try and make that not extractive,

like the idea and the belief that we build capacity and support for each other,

I think is invaluable.

And I think that is

how all of the world needs to operate so that,

you know,

we can all access those positions of traditional power and influence.

Um,

but also that we can support each other.

Because actually,

there's

something really special about picking up the phone and saying,

I've got this going on,

I don't know what to make of it,

or,

oh,

I was in this room and something's made me feel a bit uncomfortable and I,

I can't quite put my finger on it.

Um,

yeah,

I think that's really special and really,

really needed.

And have you got any final thoughts you'd like to share about?

How we collectively make co-production

a space that is

anti-racist in the first instance.

Mm.

I think very much it's about,

um,

enabling people,

or,

or enabling people to practise calling out bad behaviour or,

like,

unwanted behaviour.

I think for some people,

it can be really daunting.

I think when you're the facilitator,

well,

no,

sorry,

I'll stop saying you.

When I am the facilitator,

and it is my session that I am holding.

Then I feel really comfortable and confident in doing that because it's my duty.

I see it as my duty.

When I am in a space out in the world,

when I see

unwanted or problematic behaviour,

I'm not necessarily so

confident in calling that out.

And I imagine I can't be the only person

who feels like that.

So I think there's something about,

like,

practising,

hearing how other people have handled it and how,

you know,

to bolster yourself in doing that.

Um,

I think there's a

I really like,

uh,

when,

when your expectations are made clear pre-joining the session,

like,

this is an anti-racist space and this is what that means.

Um,

I think those are quite quick wins that you can,

you know,

start.

And then other than that,

I think it's by continuing to listen to racialized people

and hearing the things,

um,

You know,

that,

uh,

make it easy or difficult to participate.

Because,

again,

we only know what we know,

and something that I can perceive as harmless can actually

really be very triggering or harmful to someone else.

Um,

and I would never know that unless somebody has told me.

Oh,

I've read it,

or I've heard it somewhere else.

Um,

And the thing that I've

Being grappling with as well,

and probably I'd value a conversation outside of this,

is like,

when you are working with,

um,

people who have a deep history of oppression and people maybe,

um,

like,

kind of,

How anti-racism works between different groups of oppressed people.

Um,

I've encountered a few,

one probably that really sticks in my mind,

but it's like where people have

Uh,

due to cultural,

uh,

understandings,

have taken things in very different ways and then kind of blamed each other.

Um,

and so I think there's a lot,

there's just,

it's just a massive piece of work,

isn't it?

So,

for me,

it's about that,

like,

getting it right feels very overwhelming,

but doing the next best thing,

like,

the thing that is gonna take us on that path feels more achievable.

Absolutely.

Happy to have a conversation about that,

and I think.

There are often in co-production spaces,

conflicts around

our own experiences of racism,

conflict about our own experiences of shame and guilt and trauma,

conflicts about access,

like,

and

sometimes we don't call it,

and being really explicit around this is showing up,

how

do we want to maybe,

um,

Tackle this is really important,

but also saying oops,

you know what,

we're just gonna have to pause this cos we,

we can't do this right now,

um because it's not safe enough,

um,

I think not,

not enough

attention has been played.

Pay to

psychological safety from a racialized perspective,

um,

so I'm exploring that,

I hope

that

that this will come from this work,

um,

lots and lots to still think about,

um,

I haven't got any questions for you,

do you have any for me?

No,

I don't think so.

What,

um,

well,

I guess what's your next,

what are your next steps?

Uh,

next steps is an insight report.

Um,

then

we will have a,

a collection of,

um,

learning

resources such as these videos or snippets of these videos.

Then we're trying to develop a community of interest,

um,

or a community of practise around the racialized co-producers and.

Our co-production definition has gone from.

People who share their lived experiences,

researchers,

anybody that's really interested in co-production as a

way of changing things,

um.

Privileging

um racialized people that may have not or won't

get an opportunity to be in these spaces.

Um,

and then getting lots of money from people,

from people to do some of this stuff is like what next for us,

um.

We will continue to develop and grow

the Knowledge Bank,

um,

and share that.

Um,

and I know that we need to find some dates,

watch this space.

So what next is I will send you a thank you email,

consent form,

a request for payment because we expect everyone to be paid for the time.

Then I will be contacting everyone,

um,

hopefully by the end

of October with an interim report.

Um,

and then we'll have much firmer plans around,

like,

where we take some of this stuff.

So some teams have asked,

group organisations have asked me to come and

deliver some of the stories to their organisations.

Other people have said,

Oh,

they wanna

become community reporters.

Other people said,

Well,

I'm really struggling in research how to get the racialized

perspective into this.

it's continues to grow and grow and grow,

which is good.

So,

um,

but I'll keep everybody updated.

It's Brilliant.

So,

let me stop the recording there if that's OK.

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Author

streetreporter

Post date

24/02/2025