Caroline - Understanding Anti-Racism in Co-Production Spaces: Centring the Voices of Racialised Individuals

First thing You should get a recording sign come up and can I get you first of all to introduce yourself and tell me a little bit about who you are, what you do? OK. So, my name's Caroline. I wear many, many, many hats, as lots of us do. Um, I, um, I am a community reporter

I, um, I'm a mother. I'm a friend. Um, I'm really passionate about, uh, working with people who face injustice to have a voice and a say in, um, in the decisions that affect them

And I think I've been really passionate about that before I ever heard the term co-production. Um, so I started off as a youth and community worker. I do lots of volunteering in my own community, um, and I now work for a charity

Um, it's kind of like a research charity and campaigning. And so we are really embracing the kind of co-production movement and working, um, to ensure that people who are most affected by issues are involved in the work that we do. Um, it's a journey, so that happens at various different levels

Um, and then I'm also, um, I do. Well, I do lots of work in other areas as well, so I facilitate, uh, citizens' juries and citizens' assemblies. Um, I don't know what else to tell you

That is a lot. Uh, so if, so what, what's your what's the things that you do that make you happy, like where's your happy place? Oh. Well, I'm a bit sad, really

Well, I don't know, I find it exciting. But actually, I just work and volunteer a lots. So it's like being of service seems to make me happy

Um, and I think any time where I've, um, managed to Work with people who are often oppressed or othered, um, and, and work with them in a really caring way. Um, it helps people to kind of realise things about their own situations, which maybe they'd internalised as kind of their own doing or or or a lack of, and then to realise that actually it is a societal, it's a structural issue. Um, and that there are things, doors that we can knock on people that we can speak to and others that we can find solidarity with

Um, that brings me a lot of joy. And then, more personally, um, spending time outdoors and, and doing things in community makes me very joyful. It's nice

So you, you said the word, co-production. What does co-production mean to you, and we're particularly keen on exploring how co-production serves racialized people well, like, what's your experience as a racialized person in relation to co-production. So it's, I think that's a really big question

And actually, since I've got the invite, I've been thinking about this a lot. Um, because I've had lots of experiences where, in hindsight, I've maybe been invited along because of my heritage or, or, you know, how I look or how I speak. Um, And, and then I've not necessarily been made to feel welcome or like my ideas are valid or valued

Um, so I think co-production really at its heart is Is a dialogue is people being able to share their perspectives and experiences to achieve a better outcome, which will serve more people in a better way. Um, I think for too long, all of our organisations, our policies, our, you know, institutions have been designed and created for. A, a, a certain type of person in mind, and actually for lots of us, the things, the outcomes of that just doesn't work

So co-production is about making, making the world work better for everybody. Would help if I could get myself from you. So when you

Talked about Your ideas and kind of maybe being um invited in a tokenistic way, like what impact do you think that has on co-production or the individuals doing co-production? I think it's really harmful. I think as an individual, so I spoke before about people feeling like othered or marginalised or whatever, but I've often felt like that, you know, like, oh, she doesn't know what she's talking about. And then for some people, It really puts you off then participating

It can put you off even trusting, you know, like a really, and this hasn't necessarily happened to me, but in a really harmful way, it can stop people even trusting and believing in themselves and their experiences. Like when everybody rolls their eyes and they're like, Oh, here she goes again, it's like, it's really hurtful, and it's It's really I think diminishing of the experience, that, that, that is your day to day. Like, this is how I feel

I don't feel like this because I am paranoid. I feel like this because people have made me feel like this. Um, I've forgotten the question now, I think I keep going off on a tangent, but yeah, I think it's

I don't know. I think co-production is like a big flashy label that everyone's into at the moment. But actually, I think to do it well, there needs to be values and intent and skills behind it

And I think that, um, if you're not gonna do it well, it's probably better not to do it at all, because it can be really harmful. And can I ask you a question about like that harm, so. Um, and you, you don't need to answer this question, like, but it's one that I think is, um, comes to mind, so I think it's important

So there's a lot of colorism, or there is a lot of sometimes othering people based on, you know, we're looking for an Afro-Caribbean or we're looking for South Asian. And, like, as somebody, um, once said to me that they're in one of the conversations, you know, if you are fairer skinned, there is lots of challenges that come with that in co-production spaces. And I'm wondering if you've experienced any of those

Yeah, so I think, uh, sometimes people actually just assume that I am white British, and I am neither of those things. I, you know, I wasn't born here. I'm an immigrant, um, and, and my heritage isn't white

So it, it. I don't know how that impacts in terms of co-production, cause I think those assumptions haven't necessarily been made when I've been invited into a co-production space. But just in my day to day life, or, and certainly, I experienced that in the health sector, where health professionals might just make that assumption, and actually, you know, as we know, there are different things that we might be prior to or that we might need made available for us

Um, Because of our heritage. Um, and then. I don't know

I think sometimes it serves me when people have made that assumption, and it just, they see me as an ally. Um, and then other times, I think people have felt, well, sometimes people have shown their true colours where, you know, they might speak differently about, um, people of, you know, people of colour, um, if they think that they're in a room full of white people. Can you give me an example of like when people have

Assumed and what kind of like, so have people been blatantly derogatory, racist, like, so how does like racism manifest itself in co-production spaces? I think where people have assumed, um, because I am light skinned, it's more about like, oh, just talking about people in a way that isn't, well, that's a bit dehumanising, and that just like reduces people to their characteristics. So like, oh, we need to, you know, we need to find 5 black people. Um, I, I don't know

It's a really good question, cause I think it's like, it's not, it's not explicit. It's just like, it's just a vibe that you get and you just think, oh, that's, that's not OK. It's not OK to talk about anyone like that, really, but it's almost like, it's very much, it feels othering

Um, But then I think the way That it shows up in spaces um more visibly. would be around. Just assuming that you know someone's experience because of the colour of their skin

And now that you're you. I suppose like the things that you've told me about your um joys, the work that you do, I assume that you, you probably are doing co-production. Look, how what and how does co-production need to feel? For and like, like, so how, so what, what am I trying to say? should I say like, thinking about co-production for racialized people, what do we need to think about doing differently? What what needs to be the way we approach co-production for those that are from the global majority? So I think there's something about decentering whiteness

And so there's, there's things about your language choice, your outfit choices, the choices of spaces that you use to hold your co-production events. I think there's something about, um, just creating a space that feels. Uh, comfortable enough to be brave and to have difficult conversations, and for people to be their authentic selves

So, um, I try and do that a lot through the kind of group agreements. So it's not about setting rules, but it's about giving everybody the opportunity to say how, uh, you know, what needs to happen in a space to make it work for them. Um, it's giving people permission to call each other in or out, and, and to have those conversations and to know that there will be support available, whatever comes of that

Um, I think there's something about, uh, in your onboarding process or your recruitment process, like, you know, is there anything that we need to do? Is there anything that I've not thought about that, that will make this a better experience for you? How can I, how can I help you, um, you know, feel valid and valuable in this space? And then I think overall, um, you know, co-production, unless you're working on a really Boundaried piece of work where, you know, there will be immediate impact, which isn't really what I do. I work on, like, the big, tricky, sticky challenges where it might be 10 years before we see a change. So I think the process needs to be joyful when it can be

Um, and I think we need to use. Um, different tools and techniques and exercises to bring out the best of people and to enable them to share and contribute in a way that's right for them. Um, and there's some things that I think about in spaces that I've facilitated or that I've Supported where actually, even as a racialized person, you know, white is often my default

So it's about challenging yourself as a facilitator and inviting that feedback for people to challenge your assumptions and your, because often, well, I don't know, I say often, but I think people, most people don't set out to cause harm and to be rude and hurtful. Um, but you only know what you know. So if you can't create the spaces where people can challenge you, how will we get any better? But actually, people can often be quite defensive

Um, racialized people often, you know, are tired. They don't want to have to be the one that's always challenging things. Like, sometimes they just want to turn up and be made to feel welcome and valued, um, valued, sorry

So yeah, I think it just needs to be thoughtful, reflective work. And can I ask you about the term decentering whiteness, so we've, I heard a lot about we need to have conversations that acknowledge the historical legacies of racism. And I'm wondering like about this decent whiteness, how we go about doing it, how we can be conscious of as a community of co-producers

Yeah, I'm also curious about that. I am. I don't know

I think it's something that I'm mindful of, but not always, uh, At the enacting stage, um. And it's been on my mind a lot because I went to this apps. I heard this amazing speaker, and I actually can't remember her name, which is, um, quite frustrating

Um, but she, she was a black African woman, and she was telling a story of how she read a book, and, and it wasn't until quite late into the book where a physical description was given of the main character. Um, she had read it and had assumed the entire way through that it was a white character. Um, I don't know why I tell you that, really

I don't, I don't know how. I think it's about giving voice to people, you know, like giving the floor to people. It's about having, um, a diversity within your team, and that might be of experience or of, you know, different characteristics

Um, I think it's just really seeking opportunities to platform other cultures, other beliefs. So, you know, um, I've been to some, actually, I've learned a lot from you, Isaac. Um, I think when, um, you opened a session once that I attended with a poem, and it was, um, really great, but I think it's about the materials that you use, you know, who are you, who are you? Who's learning are you promoting? Who's learning are you centering, um

Whose work are you sharing, I think, you know, there's lots of little ways, which is about bringing other. Well, see, I'm saying it now other, but thoughts and ideas um that are not from white people. Mm

It's really important um and I've only, you know, privileged learning from other places that if we only talk about um. Anti-racism or, um, the challenge of racism, and that becomes the black of global majority experience, then we deny, like, the wealth of stuff that they bring to the world, like music, um, poetry, um, science, like all of the things that have come from, uh, black communities globally, we deny that. And I think, like, part of the work that I'm trying to do is maybe bring some of that in

But I do feel like it um doesn't always land very well with our white peers. Um, can I ask you about like what role do you see white peers playing in trying to make co-production anti-racist? Well, I think it's really important because we're still at the stage now where in most institutions, you know, uh, people in positions of power and influence are, are white people. So everyone needs to come on this journey

Um, And it's really difficult because lots of people do become defensive and do become, and, and it, that kind of defence mechanism then stops any learning. So it's about having long term relationships and kind of going back to it. Um, but for me, at times, that feels really frustrating cause it's like, well, we need things to change now, so let's all do a little something, please

But, um, I think we talk about, well, I've heard the term white fragility a lot, and although I can, I can kind of, I can get on board with that. I think actually, as humans, we can be quite fragile and so it's just having that really person centred. Um, ethic for me

Like, we are all people. No one wants to be told that they're doing a crap job. No one wants to be told that they're perpetuating harm

Um, and if we want people to change that, then actually, we need to meet them where they're at also, and we need to be prepared to have those conversations. We need to be able to share resources. We need people to have the space that they need to kind of process and ask questions

Um, Yeah, so I think it's, it's just really important to remember that we're all just human. When you say like we're all just human, how, like, that's a really lovely sentiment. And I'm just wondering about how you sustain

That belief and feeling, particularly like recently we had like, nat you know we had big national expressions of Islamophobia, racism. But how do we As people wanting to make change in in the world, continue to have that. I I suppose love and humanity for other people, even when things like the riots happen, even when, you know, we experience racism in that every day, then we go to a co-production space and we experience it, any suggestions, any views? I think that's really hard, so when that happened over the summer, I just completely shut down, and I, I felt so much guilt and responsibility to have a voice, to, Provide spaces for others, um

And, but I just, I just couldn't, uh, I talked to my bed, if I'm honest. I just like, it just, it just hurt me on so many levels that I just couldn't process it, and I just had to have a little shutdown period of healing. Um, and I was so grateful to all the people who took to the streets, you know, for anti-fascist demonstrations, who people who shared resources and who reached out

But even that, uh, In the initial moment, that sentiment and outpouring of love of people checking in on each other and, and checking in on me felt too much. It was like, I just don't, I just want to pretend this isn't happening, please. But once that initial kind of sharp shock was over, I actually really took heart in that

Um, Because actually, in the darkest of times, wherever you see, you know, wherever you look, there are moments of love and moments of humanity and moments of connection. Um, and then moving to beyond that, I just, I, you know, I went back to the, the movements of resistance where people have faced. You know, absolute harm, but I still kind of risen and, and collaborated and, and fought for liberation

Um, so I think it's really important to kind of, Take Inspiration and courage from, from the movements that are passed. Um, and I think it's also really important to keep an eye on, like, where has this come from? Because as easy as it is to say, oh, well, it's these thugs, like, that's not where that unrest has come from, you know? There's like deep things that have been fueled and fed and paid for. Um, and then for me, then it's been about

Like, actually, where are the opportunities to shake up um that dominant belief or that dominant culture that is othering people and that is feeding like division. Um, but I think the, the thing that I took away from it is that actually, there is room for everyone's activism and inactivism. Um, you know, just because you are a person facing racism and facing hate does not mean you have to be the person to fix that

Like, that isn't on you. Um, And if you want to, great, and like, let's join forces, but also if you don't, that is OK. Um, so it's about kind of holding each other in a way that feels safe and that feels right for whoever it is that you're meeting with

So you, you've done a fair bit of co-production, so I'm wondering about. Like, how much of the co-production that you've done starts off with a set of values and how much. Attention's paid, particularly when racialized people involved in it, around the historical legacies and everyday experiences of of racism

So I actually think that not enough space is given to that, to think about that historical legacy, but I don't know how to change that, and I have been thinking about this a lot really, because, Um, You know, we each come. No matter where you come from, where you grew up, how you live, we each come with our own understanding of things. And when you're working on a finite commissioned project, Like, how much room is there to explore all of these, like, historical things? How relevant are they beyond, like, not gen, yeah, well, general awareness raising and like building community and building understanding

It's a balance, isn't it? It's like, I'm not delivering, uh, a lecture. I'm not, it's not a present, you know, we're, we're working on something specific. So I tend to, uh, try and weave things in as best as I can

Um, I will share resources for people who so wish to, to use them, but sometimes I wonder about that because there will always be people who have capacity and interest, and others who maybe just don't have the time or resources to look more deeply around an issue. Um, so, I don't know, I'm really conflicted about this still. Um, I am quite excited about this new project where we'll be talking about, like, wealth

I think there is actually lots of room in there to look at some of the historical context of what has led to people's decisions about money now. Um, so I'm hoping to try and, and play about with a few things and, and glean some learning from that. Um, I also just, you know, I'm really lucky to be within a community of practise of great facilitators, uh, and people who care about these things

Um, and then also, because I work across lots of different fields, I, I'm really privy to lots of different bits of information, which are often useful to share in different spaces. Um, So, yeah, and then I think sometimes the, the conversations that you would have with a client when you're about to embark a co-production project, um, uh, give more room to explore some of those historical contexts, and, and to challenge people to think about within their own organisation. How does it show up? And even though you might not take it into the space with the participants, because they, there either isn't room for it or there's no appetite for it, at least you're having that conversation somewhere

Um, Yeah, I think, I don't know, I don't have an answer to that, and I'm hoping that that might be something that comes out of this project also. That really interesting statement you said around. The white world expecting global majority black and brown people to always have the answer, just sometimes is the kind of like norm isn't it, like we, we have the answers and I don't think we do, I think

There's been, I think for me, like, there was a moment in time that surprised a lot of white people around me, the murder of a man in America, surprised a lot of people. That didn't surprise me at all. Um, and then, like, things like the riots

But I'm like in co-production spaces that are often about advancing equality. And for the last 20 years, those equality advances haven't come, so I've always wondered like what could we do, should we do to make sure that when we do co-production, and if I was thinking of co-production as like an agent for change. Then it really leads to people having better experiences

I don't think we've got there yet, I think we're still. Well, somewhat stuck. Have you got any examples from, like, your facilitation world, like, so how many people do you, how many people like you are doing the kind of work that you do? So a lot of people have said, actually, I might be the only, um, CEO that is a person of colour

I might be the only facilitator that is a person of colour. I might be the only co-producer. Like, tell me about you and, like, how many other people like you are doing the work that you're doing? So I think in the facilitator world that I occupy, I think that is very much a very white space

Um, and actually, quite often, probably going back 345 years ago now, we'd be like, Right, we need to diversify our team, but we, we didn't always know how. So, as a result, so one of the organisations, and I won't mention them, cause obviously, I've not discussed it with them, but through one of the organisations that I've worked with, we actually designed a facilitation, um, skills training programme to invite some of our past participants to become facilitators. So, I think, I think that um I don't know

This might be controversial, because obviously, I really champion co-production, but I think it's too slow. And I think that there are other places where we can affect change. And I, I pride myself on being that kind of agent of change in whatever space that I occupy

So it's about the conversations that you're having with, you know, and again, cause I'm lucky, I work for lots of different organisations. I'm having lots of different conversations. Um, and also I've started to seek out spaces that are more diverse

So when, um, if I'm to apply for a job, I would always look at their board. And actually, it would put me off, and I would have that conversation then to say, like, what's, what's going on here? What's the plan? Um, and sometimes those boards are a legacy, and, you know, there is a plan in motion, and sometimes they've never even thought about it, and that's a big red flag for me, because actually, as much as I want to be an agent of change, I want to keep myself well, like you said, we, uh, this, this work is really slow. It's it's taking too long

And actually, for me, there needs to be joy and safety in the work that I do. And so that might be taking the easy way out, I don't know. But in terms of self-care and preservation, I need to be in spaces where, where lots of people are valued and celebrated and are, um, supported to lead

So I think there's something about that. And then there's something about, um, Yeah, it's not just that it's like in the co-production spaces, it's in the leadership, it's in the facilitation spaces. But you just mentioned about, um, obviously the murder in America, and I, I've reflected this summer

So I worked for a really large organisation when kind of the movement became more Eurocentric. Uh, I'll certainly, um, and, you know, in England, we had lots of, lots of activity. Um, and I, um, was really unhappy with the statement that was put out by my organisation, and I spoke to my line manager, and they were like, Oh, you know, it kind of fobbed me off a little bit

So I went straight to the chief exec and emailed and said, I'm not happy about this. That person then booked in a meeting with me and, you know, Placated me, let's say. And then was like, Well, what do you suggest? And I was like, Well, it's not just on me

Like, I'm one person out of thousands who work here. And also, there are people who are getting paid far more money to deal with this than I am. Like, it's not on me

We're in the middle of a pandemic. I'm homeschooling, like, I didn't, I didn't love that. Um, and then actually, nothing came of it

We had a couple more meetings, and it, it moved on, and I just like, held that resentment and bitterness inside of me. Whereas the organisation that I predominantly work for now, over the summer, like, So there was an initial weekend where a lot of the violence occurred and some of that happened in my hometown. Um, you know, we all had, we had like a group check-in, and we had individual check-ins

We had, um, an optional meeting to draught the statement, the organisational statement. We were offered, like, various routes of support. Everybody was told, like, they could work from home, but they didn't have to

It was really up to them. But if you wanted to get a taxi to work, you could do that. Um, And the, the response, obviously completely different organisation, and maybe it's time, maybe it's the people, but, you know, 4 years on, was a very different response

And there, I felt held, I felt valued. I felt like, um, it just felt really joy, not joyful, that's the wrong word, but it felt safe. And, um, I think that is, is a big thing because our organisations, Want to do co-production, but it's like, how actually do you treat your staff? How do you treat your volunteers? You know, don't, don't take it all out into the world, when actually internally, you can't treat people with the same care and values

Although that, you know, there is something to be said about learning from the engagement and facilitation of working with communities, if there's a pathway to take that back up internally to then inspect, like, our policies and practises. But that isn't true of all organisations. Mm

So, and I'm wondering about, like, we, we've got a bit of an idea around supporting a small group of racialized individuals. To not only be co-producers in the sense of come and tell us your stories, but be facilitators, be researchers, so we like strengthening, trying to strengthen um. A network of people, but what value do you see in that? Absolutely huge value

Um. Yeah, I think that is absolutely, you know, the right way to go because it's There is something about my co-production work, where often, because it is project-based, you know, I will work with a group of people and then that's it. And as much as I try and make that not extractive, like the idea and the belief that we build capacity and support for each other, I think is invaluable

And I think that is how all of the world needs to operate so that, you know, we can all access those positions of traditional power and influence. Um, but also that we can support each other. Because actually, there's something really special about picking up the phone and saying, I've got this going on, I don't know what to make of it, or, oh, I was in this room and something's made me feel a bit uncomfortable and I, I can't quite put my finger on it

Um, yeah, I think that's really special and really, really needed. And have you got any final thoughts you'd like to share about? How we collectively make co-production a space that is anti-racist in the first instance. Mm

I think very much it's about, um, enabling people, or, or enabling people to practise calling out bad behaviour or, like, unwanted behaviour. I think for some people, it can be really daunting. I think when you're the facilitator, well, no, sorry, I'll stop saying you

When I am the facilitator, and it is my session that I am holding. Then I feel really comfortable and confident in doing that because it's my duty. I see it as my duty

When I am in a space out in the world, when I see unwanted or problematic behaviour, I'm not necessarily so confident in calling that out. And I imagine I can't be the only person who feels like that. So I think there's something about, like, practising, hearing how other people have handled it and how, you know, to bolster yourself in doing that

Um, I think there's a I really like, uh, when, when your expectations are made clear pre-joining the session, like, this is an anti-racist space and this is what that means. Um, I think those are quite quick wins that you can, you know, start. And then other than that, I think it's by continuing to listen to racialized people and hearing the things, um, You know, that, uh, make it easy or difficult to participate

Because, again, we only know what we know, and something that I can perceive as harmless can actually really be very triggering or harmful to someone else. Um, and I would never know that unless somebody has told me. Oh, I've read it, or I've heard it somewhere else

Um, And the thing that I've Being grappling with as well, and probably I'd value a conversation outside of this, is like, when you are working with, um, people who have a deep history of oppression and people maybe, um, like, kind of, How anti-racism works between different groups of oppressed people. Um, I've encountered a few, one probably that really sticks in my mind, but it's like where people have Uh, due to cultural, uh, understandings, have taken things in very different ways and then kind of blamed each other. Um, and so I think there's a lot, there's just, it's just a massive piece of work, isn't it? So, for me, it's about that, like, getting it right feels very overwhelming, but doing the next best thing, like, the thing that is gonna take us on that path feels more achievable

Absolutely. Happy to have a conversation about that, and I think. There are often in co-production spaces, conflicts around our own experiences of racism, conflict about our own experiences of shame and guilt and trauma, conflicts about access, like, and sometimes we don't call it, and being really explicit around this is showing up, how do we want to maybe, um, Tackle this is really important, but also saying oops, you know what, we're just gonna have to pause this cos we, we can't do this right now, um because it's not safe enough, um, I think not, not enough attention has been played

Pay to psychological safety from a racialized perspective, um, so I'm exploring that, I hope that that this will come from this work, um, lots and lots to still think about, um, I haven't got any questions for you, do you have any for me? No, I don't think so. What, um, well, I guess what's your next, what are your next steps? Uh, next steps is an insight report. Um, then we will have a, a collection of, um, learning resources such as these videos or snippets of these videos

Then we're trying to develop a community of interest, um, or a community of practise around the racialized co-producers and. Our co-production definition has gone from. People who share their lived experiences, researchers, anybody that's really interested in co-production as a way of changing things, um

Privileging um racialized people that may have not or won't get an opportunity to be in these spaces. Um, and then getting lots of money from people, from people to do some of this stuff is like what next for us, um. We will continue to develop and grow the Knowledge Bank, um, and share that

Um, and I know that we need to find some dates, so watch this space. So what next is I will send you a thank you email, consent form, a request for payment because we expect everyone to be paid for the time. Then I will be contacting everyone, um, hopefully by the end of October with an interim report

Um, and then we'll have much firmer plans around, like, where we take some of this stuff. So some teams have asked, group organisations have asked me to come and deliver some of the stories to their organisations. Other people have said, Oh, they wanna become community reporters

Other people said, Well, I'm really struggling in research how to get the racialized perspective into this. So it's continues to grow and grow and grow, which is good. So, um, but I'll keep everybody updated

It's Brilliant. So, let me stop the recording there if that's OK.