Elkin- Building the Space: Amplifying Racialised Voices in Suicide Prevention

So first of all, can I get you to introduce yourself and tell me a little bit about yourself? Um, yeah, sure. How deep do you want me to go? Do you want me to go to everything, or just like as deep as you, OK, OK. Um, my name's Elkin Gordon Atwell. Um, I'm 61 years old, so I'm told.

Um, I was born in Brixton in the 1965, South London, of, um, Caribbean and Jamaican parents. Um. Growing up in Brixton was very interesting at that time, I must say.

Um, we had a lot of struggles er. I managed school, wasn't really a school, it was a place where you got bullied by other pupils and even by the teachers, um. The expectation there was not much, it didn't come out to be much, but you know, I had a certain amount of drive in me.

I um managed to get onto a project called Rally International Operation Rally where I went to Australia. I had a keen interest in photography. I managed to get some um mayor's fund for of um photography equipment.

I um. I'm telling my interest in photography. It's a great um stress reliever for me.

Um, probably for my father's interest in photography, he had a photographic studio in Brixton, um. I Eventually Managed to um. Become involved in Uh, I'd say local government support work, let's call it that.

I won't go into the details too much about that aspect of my life. Um, I went to university and got a. BA honours.

And then further on I went to get a MA. Um, honours at, um, Ravensbourne University was formerly called Ravensbourne College. They're based next to the 02, um.

I have travelled. I wouldn't say extensively, but wider, I've been to Australia, um, most of Europe, a little bit of Africa, um. And I'm currently Now living with um chronic illness on several, not just one but several um chronic illnesses and I surviving.

I'd call it, I wouldn't call it living, I'd call it surviving really. But you know, it's what you make of it and coming from where I'm coming. You know, things could be a lot worse, especially in this time and age and what's going on, yeah.

And you know, we've known each other a moment and. Like I've seen. The ups and downs of your health, you're seeing the ups and downs of mine.

And this campaign is really around and we've, we, we have had friends with mental health challenges, you know, like we've had mental health around us, we've had mental health, we've. So this campaign is really about. I think put in right and injustice and I'll talk about the injustice that I think exists, but so I'm using the word racialized but we can say global majority are racialized.

As a racialized person, do you feel like your experiences around mental health or suicide have been properly understood by people and services around you? Wow, uh. As First of all, let's clarify what is racialized, yeah? Are, are, are, are we specifically talking about melanated people? Melanated people, let's go with melanated people. Thank you for that.

Yeah, yeah, so melanated people, uh, global majority racialized. I've chosen language, you know, we, you know, melanated people particularly wanted to explore. Do you feel like your experiences around mental health or suicide have been properly understood by people around you or services and it kind of these questions that I'm asking everyone came from conversations we've had previously around mental health.

So um yeah, I just wanted to get your outcome. As a. Melanated person.

I feel Do I feel or do I know? I think I know. Yeah, cos it's a way of feeling things and you have an aspect of I suspect this person has been um detrimental to my life or to my emotional feelings or to my safety, yeah, um but. I know, which is a different aspect.

Yeah, um. About Being Racialised or can I call it deterministic sex um separation from a majority of people and that's interesting in. So much in the way that.

You can go into the clinical environment or your GP and. You'll be treated differently. Why? Just because of the colour of your skin, not because of who you are, not because of what you've done, not because of anything else, just purely the colour of your skin determines how you're treated and your expectations from that.

So-called professional. Yeah, cos they call themselves professionals and they write reports on you and it's a professional report, so they say, yeah. But you know when you get um.

Profiled, yeah. You have a limited amount of accountability on the professional side. Yeah, and then there's that thing where.

You're black or you're melanated shall I say, and they want, they have expectations about your thresholds. What your expectations are, yeah, and what your outcomes are, yeah. And have expectations about your life experience and what you've done with your life.

Yeah. Now. When you speak to these professionals, most of them.

Don't have much life experience. All they have basically is their professional experience and their training, and that's what they're relying on. And the training.

Does not encompass everything. Yeah, it's very much a sectarian. Kind of education they've had, so in that aspect, you know, there's a.

They may not, they may not be a separatist as I call them. They may not be whatever you think they are, but that's the way they've been trained and that's their expectations, yeah. So for instance, if you um have a sore thumb, the first thing they may think, oh right, they want um medication, they're looking for medication, yeah? You're not looking for a cure, you're looking for the medication for the drugs.

And my primary interest when I go and see a professional is actually I'm looking for a cure, I'm looking for a solution. I want the solution. To help me get out from where I am, yeah.

I don't want to, I don't want the solution to be, oh you're a black male, oh yes, you have a high tolerance to tolerance to pain, oh yes, oh you don't need this medication, that medication's not for you, it's a bit expensive and I think maybe you're just saying this to get hold of that medication because even though I've profiled you, I know you're, I still know that you're very clever and you know what medication you want. You know, and then you get the, the statements, the sweeping statements about yourself from um some professionals who. Don't see you, don't hear you.

When you speak to them, and I've noticed the difference between. Black professionals and white professionals. Yeah.

Black professionals are trained exactly the same way, but they seem to get it quicker. Yeah. When you speak to white officials, some of them have no idea what you're speaking about, what you're talking about, and if you're not in um.

A Cognitively, cognitively aware state of mind, they never get it, yeah, and if you start. Um I'm a man I talk like a man and sometimes yes, I have a strong tone. And that's OK.

There's nothing wrong, there's nothing wrong with that I think, you know. People get angry, they get a strong tone. It doesn't mean they're gonna lash out at you, it doesn't mean anything like that.

It means they have a strong tone and they're talking as the person they are. Yeah, when you're being assertive. But people tend to um, well, not people, some people.

Um, Tend to categorise you and say, oh. Usual suspect, yeah, we know who you are, yeah. But what they don't understand is that you've exhausted.

Nearly all of your options to be understood. Yeah. And if you're not understood, you tend to become vocal.

Actually you've got two options, you become vocal or you become inwardly resentful, resentful and go quiet. Yeah, cos you know if you become vocal. There's a chance this person may press the panic button.

And say this person, I can't handle this person, this person's too vocal, they're too assertive, they're not stopping. I'm, I fear for my safety, you know. Why? Because they're using words and they've got a strong tongue, yeah? You're not getting the violence, you've got a strong tone, you're being assertive, you're trying to get your feelings or your point across and we're not understanding.

The other option. Well, the first option is you can do that. And then you could be ejected from the premises, you may be taken to the police station, you may not get treatment that you want or that you need, yeah.

It's more to the point rather than want what you need, yeah, and um. You end up on the street with no treatment. And nothing and you can't go back for treatment, so therefore you're now um which I've seen many times, people living on the streets cos they've they're not, they won't be accepted into these institutions because they're not vocally compliant, yeah.

The other option is to go quiet. And become their guinea pigs because then you don't have a voice. I think I've, I could go on, but I, I mean, yes, and we will go on, but I wanted to go back to this thing around.

Particularly your experiences around mental health, and we have spoken about suicide and suicidality, that, and I just wanted to kind of like, do you think like people have understood your needs around your mental health or when you've been in that place. When you're There Your cognitive expressional abilities are different. Yeah, And there's this internal um.

Process in your mind that you're not. Understood And you're basically you're you're in a different world and. As a vessel speaking to someone else, they have to think about what you're saying, yeah? You know, despite the cultural differences or whatever, they, they don't seem to.

Um, Grasp What you're trying to convey to them, yeah. Some, they have their questions but they seem very um. Profiled To what their expectations would be to an answer, you know, it's, it's like they'll ask you who's the Prime Minister, like what's that got to do with me, you know, he's not, that doesn't mean anything.

Oh, he knows who the Prime Minister is, he's not that far gone, you know, like standard questions like no, how do you feel, sir? Yeah, well, actually I don't feel good at all. Why? Because. I have all these emotions going through me and I can't process them and I feel so far away from you despite you only being a few feet to me, I feel like I'm 10 miles away from you and I'm shouting and I'm shouting at you and you're not hearing me even though we're so close, you know.

Why are you so far away from me? Why aren't you hearing me? Why can't you understand that, you know. My emotional um. Maelstrom For choice of a word.

Is all over the place. And you won't get it Unless you sit down there and try to experience something with me and you know when you're down. You don't really want to get into that kind of like.

Conversation anyway. Cos that's not what you're about, what you're doing is you're really emotionally feeling what's going on. Rather than um verbalising anything to anyone, yeah.

And you know, the er. The communicative. Thing, for instance, if I'm in um Brixton, you know, it's a bit wild sometimes, a bit of the wild west, and you speak to someone and you can see that they've been under treatment and it hasn't worked and they're all over the place and you talk to them like a person.

They get you, they understand that when they tell you something, you understand it immediately what they're, what they, what they're trying to tell you, what's what's going on. But you know, as a professional you're looking at other just talking. No, actually when I'm talking to them, they're having actual they're having therapy.

Mhm. Cos someone's taken time out to listen to them. That deep listening is so important, particularly around like when someone's in mental distress and we know so many people are just not here because they never made it past that mental distress and listened to them.

I was wondering, have there been times where racism. And not feeling like you belong affected your mental health or made it harder to reach out for support. Oh Yeah, absolutely, and it, it sometimes scares you away from seeking support as well.

I've had better reactions from strangers in the street asking me what's wrong, are you OK? Do you wanna talk? And I've been in situations where I've said no. Cause at that point I was so. In my head I just carried on walking.

I couldn't talk to him, you know. He was one of the largest metropolitan cities in the world, and you know, and it's busy and he wants to take time out and talk to me. Very nice, but I can't, I couldn't do it.

I can't do it, you know. Other situations people I've talked, spoken with, and. The conversations can get deep because there is some Kind of cultural alignment.

Yeah. I'm not you know, and it, and, and also it doesn't matter, you know, as Michael Jackson says, whether you're black and white, it's the level of understanding. And that and that um.

Kind of awareness about what's going on. You know, and taking the time out to sit and listen. Yeah, And being um.

Humanistic in that kind of approach. If you get people who aren't humanistic and we're doing tick box. You spot that a mile off because obviously you know you're you're you're feeling down, you're hyper-aware, very hyper-aware of what's going on, and that's kind of like a survival instinct kicking in.

Cos you don't have time for the. Um, excuse my bullshit, you know, yeah, so, and, yeah, yeah. And this whole thing around like, you know, suicide's a very taboo subject and what I hear.

Uh, a lot around, oh, you know, like if you're a melanated person or global majority racialized person, we don't seek help, we don't talk about suicide, we don't talk about mental health. Just wanted your take on that. Yes.

Absolutely. The amount of friends. I used to have.

Who spoke to me about things. And we're no longer here. Tells me that that is BS yeah, um.

One of the things I've, I've learned, you know, which which which is interesting is that you know when you're young. You don't really You're not really um. Aware Of the Stresses other people go through, you're aware of your own self, but you're not aware of other people nowadays, you know, so what one person you could say, actually I know a couple of people who you would say are push button.

Yeah. You say something and they're jumping up and they're doing this, they're doing that, you know, or they're ready to fight or they're ready to run or they're ready to do something, yeah. And to me that is pretty high stress.

Now I realised at the time I didn't think nothing of it, but now I realise it's high stress and you know people who are. Emotionally um quiet, that's high stress as well. Because they're not um exhibiting their emotions, they're not showing you and you know the next day you hear they're not around because why? Oh because they were under a lot of stress and you didn't realise cos they were quiet.

Yeah, and he spoke to them and he said, what's going on huh? Oh nothing much man. Yeah. And.

Within a week they're not, they're no longer around, they said, what's wrong? I don't know, the last thing he said to me, nothing much was going on. Yeah, I didn't know that much was going on. And that's a kind of like um.

There's a thing, because of racism, there is this thing about um. Your street face. Yeah.

You know, in the house, in your home or in a safe environment, you're happy, but as soon as you come out on the street, it's like. Mr. Bulldog, you know.

And when you meet a friend, ah, you relax a bit, but you still have to keep the mm, I'm miss the man, you know. And there is that thing, and that's a male and female thing. As well, you know, and when you meet professionals.

Oh, I'mprofessional. I can't show. You still can't show yourself.

Because why? because. If I show myself I'm going to be weak. And I don't wanna be weak.

I don't want to give up control. I don't want to be abused. I don't wanna be traumatised anymore, you know.

Actually I'm traumatised enough just living. Living as a melanated person is hard enough. Let alone living as one who appears to be free and then getting more abuse.

And that's something you learn, you learn pretty early on. But when you're happy or or or you communicate with people, people tend to abuse that trust. Yeah.

They don't, it's almost as if they don't want you to be happy. Yeah. It's not everyone, but it's the bullies.

Yeah. And you know, I'm not saying everyone's a bully intentionally, some people are bullies and don't even realise it. Yeah.

And and um. The medical field I think it's rife cos they just don't seem to understand what's what I don't know. Is, is it um formulative? Bullying Yeah, I don't know I can't the words fail me really at the moment to express that, you know.

It's like a culture of bullying or formulative bullying is, is, is, or what's, what's going on there because you know you need something to. Separate. Itself from The process, maybe it's a tick box thing like you know you've got the ticks box bullying and the, you know, and they don't even realise what they're just ticking boxes.

They're not actually um. Detaching themselves from the tick box, looking at a human being. And I think that's the way it's going at the moment.

And how, like, so the question really was about have there been times where racism, discrimination, or not feeling like you belong affected your mental health or made it harder to reach out for for support. And I think what I heard is that yes, absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And if you were.

In crisis today, or I don't know, if you were feeding the funk today and you knew that you needed. The help. Do you, do you have any confidence that you'd be able to get it if you reached out? I don't have to think about it, I thought I'd say.

Have you got a coin? We can flip the coin and find out. It's so profound, isn't it, like it's chance. Um, it is, absolutely.

You know, you flip a coin, may maybe you flip a coin, maybe you go somewhere and flip it, flip the coin again. Or get a dice. And then thinking about like what would feel gen what would uh feeling generally safe, listened to and cared for look like for you when it comes to suicide prevention in your community or for yourself.

Right. I would say Depends which model, you see. I'd, I'd say one model is a drop-in centre where you can just walk in and get people to listen to and help you.

Yeah. Another, another model is the phone. Yeah.

Another model is via the internet via um Zoom talks or what we're doing now. Yeah or chat just chat yeah cos it depends where you are. In your, in your um.

Mental space, yeah, I mean. Some people may. Well, for me, some.

You may want to talk anonymously online. You may want physical contact with someone and talk to them in person. You may want a group atmosphere where you're going to drop in and just talk to people who you know are going through things themselves, yeah.

You know, we have a skilled worker who understands what's going on and That could make a huge difference. OK. And one of the key things I think is.

24 hours, not 9 to 5. Yeah. The amount of organisations.

That Mm In the morning you ring them up. All spaces have gone. Yeah.

The amount of organisations you're ringing up at 105 50 sorry, we're closed now. What do you do? What, what, yeah, what do you do, you know, you're there, you're thinking. Wow.

Yeah, it's a, it's a bit rough, it can be rough. Yeah. And those are the times when you need to talk to someone.

Yeah Maybe, maybe you've been out of your head and you're really kind of like trying to get things together and. You just need to talk to someone and it's like 4 o'clock in the morning. 5 in the morning, you've been up all night, you can't sleep, you're stressed and you want to talk to someone and you've got these thoughts going in your head and you just need to talk to someone and get something out and you ring up at 5:45 to 5 and they tell you we're closed for the weekend.

Like, what's that about? I'll tell you what it's about, it's about we don't care. Yeah, We're getting paid, it's 9 to 5. Yeah.

Job's worse, innit? And I understand people need a week and I understand people have to go home, they've got their lives to live and their families, you know. But He can only abuse friends and families that much. Outside of that.

You have to have some form of services out there that you can rely on. You can't rely on friends and families, even though some of them may be very, very good. Are understanding cos they know you and they can deal with you, yeah.

You still need something outside of that that can um. Kind of like being a, being a reflective surface towards you. And I've heard from other people about the need to have like professionals um support and particularly about like suicide prevention like that you don't see black and brown people in suicide campaigns, you don't see um melanated people shall I say, you don't see like the workforce matching.

Well, well, obviously it doesn't happen, does it? Yeah. Yeah, but black people don't get prostate cancer, black people don't have high blood pressure, black people don't commit suicide. Black people don't disappear off the face of the earth.

Never to be seen again. Yeah. Doesn't happen, does it? But you know, as, as, as soon as someone um raises it, then obviously you're being hypersensitive, you're you're raising something which I can't address as a chazoid person.

I can't address that cos I know nothing about it. I don't want to address it because it's stressing me out. I follow what the rules are, yeah, or what our protocol is, yeah.

Or what's been laid down by government, you know, I'm not, I'm not um. Thinking about you per se, about the, the greater picture, so to speak, yeah. So yeah, there, there is um.

Limited resources for uh melanated people and I think it's a crying shame that so many. Young people, especially young people. That we've lost Which we didn't have to.

Yeah. And you see the news every day and you wonder why if it's reported. Yeah, or highlighted every day, you know, people, you know, uh, uh, I think Malay people make about, I don't know, 20 to 30% of the population.

That's quite a large amount. You know? We all pay our taxes, we all pay into the system. Why can't we get this thing to work for us sometimes? And you know what's funny, when.

I will say, well, my experience is how many people, how many of us have been suicidal suicidal ourselves and just survived or surviving. How many of us lost people. Mm All of the melanated people that I know, that's not just one, all.

And then you, you're in spaces and people say, oh the numbers don't tell us that. Mhm, yeah, stats. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, stats, yeah, and stats are interesting, you know. Cos you can use them any way you like.

You know, just I, I mean I had one situation where I'm in Brixton and you know, something totally unrelated, but you know it's like dealing with housing and they said, oh, we had 9, 90% support for um. Our housing plans, yeah. And I said, really? 90%, yeah, that out of 4000 homes, they had 90% support.

Yeah? So I asked, out of these cards that they, they were collecting, what was the return rate? Yeah? Oh, we've got 90 cards back. So I, so I says, so you got 90 cards back and that's 90% of 4000 apartments. And I says, how many negatives did you get? Only 1 or 2.

So how many non-returns did you get? Oh well we had a lot of those, but we count those as being affirmative. If you don't reply. It's a, it's a plus for us.

So stats are very convenient, you know, and. Stats and demographics are interesting in that. People use them for their own purposes.

And one and one of the things um even now, you know, what we're looking at um the UK and what's been going on recently regarding um racial bias. Yeah. And lack of understanding and people jumping up and following other people for no reason at all, for not even thinking, yeah, what they're following and the the about themselves and.

It just beggars belief that people. We refuse to think, you know, and if you're professional, if you're a professional and you're doing the same thing, it's almost literally the same level as that. Mhm.

When I was, so I, you, as you know, like I launched this campaign because it was. 25 years since my. First suicide attempt.

Um The 1st of June I launched the campaign, reached 45, never thought I'd be here, etc. And when I was preparing to launch the campaign, I read the suicide prevention strategy. And I'm old school, so I like print stuff off, scan through it and I was like looking for the word race in there.

I, and there was maybe 4 mentions and I was thinking how is it that I don't know a single melanated person or racialized person, global majority person that has not had experiences of suicidality or mental health. I don't know one person in my life. And how is it that I know so many people that have been bereaved by suicide, but yet there is no mention in this government strategy to the needs of melanated people.

Within the community. Street face. People see as a Weakness As um Something shameful and.

There is also the religious aspect of it as well. I think yeah um he committed suicide, she committed suicide, oh no, she won't make it to heaven then will she, which I think's a load of rubbish really, you know. I think you know.

You couldn't You shouldn't go judging other people. You have no idea what they've gone through, what they're going through or where they are, yeah? Whether it be mentally, physically, or both. You don't know what torture that person's going through.

So please don't judge them. Yeah. You don't know what's going on, um.

I've known several people, I'm gonna tell you the truth, I know several people who had cancer, yeah, um, bone cancer, prostate cancer, and, um. I went to the hospice and. They told me the amount, crikey, one of my best friends, he, he, he, he said.

Elkin, you wouldn't believe the amount of pain I'm in. You would not believe the amount of pain I'm in, yeah. And I've got the morphine thing and he's there clicking the morphine thing and I'm and you know that eventually kills you anyway, you know, it's um.

End of life treatment kind of thing, you know, but. I think with human beings. They shouldn't be worrying about such things, yeah.

I think. If someone decides they've had enough pain. And They're done with it Yeah, give them the support and see where they are in a year's time, if they last that long.

But when someone's in chronic pain. And they say to you. They can't take no more.

You have to respect that because if it was you, you may, you, you may be taking a different decision. You may be getting a ferry and jumping off a ferry in the middle of the English Channel. You know, this, this what did that happen, he took a dinghy out and he didn't come back.

Yeah, so you have to be. Receptive that you know we're on the planet for a little while and we go anyway, yeah. Um Life is precious, we know that, and it can be fun.

But for some people it never will be. So there's so there's that kind of like um it may not sound very positive but believe me it is right, because you know people have to make a decision about what they want to do with their lives. Mm.

I, you know, I'm a great believer in that. Uh, we, we try to support people, but ultimately people have the, the right to be here or not to be here. Yeah, self-determination, yes, absolutely, absolutely, I believe in self-determination.

But some people may hate me cos I said that, but. Yeah. Self-determination is important.

I think it's one of the, we're human beings and we're individuals and we have that ability to be self-determined. And just going back to that policy, so you, you're talking about stigma, judging, all the things that might get in the way of. Us seeking help or, but how is it a government policy can have very little reference to melanated people.

So that isn't about the community, it's like that's the government, the statistics, the people like. Yeah, it's interesting, they have a very interesting process I believe where they go to these um. Professionals, and most of the professionals are called caseoids, so.

Obviously they've been trained a certain way and that's what they're reflecting. They're reflecting their society from 2030 years ago. Yeah.

And most of, most, most of them, you know, the staff there will be the, will be of similar ilk. Unless someone pushes it in their direction under their noses and they, I think they're caring people, don't get me wrong, I don't think they're horrible people. I think they're caring people, but unless someone shoves it under their nose and makes them think about it and address it.

It won't get addressed. They've done the best that they can. And there is that um I don't know what you're suggesting, but there is that advisory role.

That needs to be filled. Yeah, yeah. There's an advisory one that needs to be filled and it needs to be addressed and also, you know, it's not just um.

Looking at it, is about addressing it. Because it's going to form some policy. But it needs to be practical and put into practise.

Yeah, and it makes me. Think about if you aren't connecting with. Melanated people in the first place, then you're developing a strategy that is from 23 to 28.

Clearly that strategy will only serve the people that you've connected with, won't serve melanated people. So it's this vicious cycle of like we haven't got the numbers, we've got very big voices that are. Maybe bereaved families, maybe other people, but that they.

Racialis, and I will say racialized experience seems to be one that is pushed to the margins. Not pushed or marches, it's ignored. When my father died in 1996, um.

I tried to start a campaign for. Africa being men with prostate cancer. And I looked around.

I visited, we had an organisation here in Brixton, we had. Very little support. And when I approached these organisations, all they were interested in was their funding.

They didn't offer any support to families, any counselling to families, nothing, yeah. My brother had prostate cancer. He had a lot more support.

Yeah, before they operated on him, he had a lot more support. Not enough, but it was better than when my father was around, I can tell you that. Yeah.

There was nothing in 1996, nothing. And believe me, I looked, I contacted this organisation, I was willing to get my hands dirty and start designing websites and everything. They weren't interested Until people start to realise actually there is something um missing here.

And now we have proper campaigns. And much more high profile. So the same thing about um.

You Suicide and youth suicide can be anything from a, you know. 1213 to 21, 22, 25. I think when you're 25 you're still a young person.

You know you're still developing your brain and still learning things, you know, it's not, it does youth doesn't stop dead at 21. You know, so people are still um learning how to live their lives, learning how to cope, coping strategies, everything, you know, and, and I think, you know. There needs to be um.

Spaces where people can um. Reconnect with themselves. And know that there is hope and they're they're not alone.

And that people have been where they've walked before in the sand and there are footprints to follow, you know. And there are organisations I know out there doing things. But it's in a very um.

Different way Yeah, not focusing on what we're what we're what we're doing about prevention here. But they, they have a holistic approach to what they're doing. It is a bit different.

I'm thinking about. What, what's something you wish people, organisations or services better understood about suicide and racialized communities? Sorry, can you repeat the question? Yeah, so what is something you wish people, organisations or services understood better about suicide and racialized communities? That's a big question, you know. Um, I wish they could wear the other shoe.

Once they do that, they'll understand the impact it has on that person and their friends and families. Yeah. And what's helped you keep going when you've had difficult moments? And some very good friends.

Yeah Very good friends and families. Who, who, who I might mention before you go, who. I would not have expected anything from and they didn't expect anything from me.

Mm. And I wanted to like just pull up and. There is lots of chatter about like suicide being taboo, particularly for melanated people.

But yet you have had so many. Conversations, you know that friends, family, community supports. Is The answer to, uh, so I'm just wondering why did you, why is this campaign important to you? Every life matters.

Literally. Mhm. The, I'm gonna be tearful now actually.

Oh, thanks. Every life matters, I think um. I think, not I forget, I think, I know.

Thinking assumes you don't know and you're thinking about something gay. Now I know. For Life as it is at the moment.

It may be tough But it would be even tougher. If I wasn't here. To deal with it, yeah, and.

Sometimes the support you get. Is invisible. You don't realise until way afterwards you thought, do you know what, I didn't know that I was getting support at the time.

Yeah, what that Even from strangers, you don't know. Yeah, and. What I've gained.

I've passed on to others. And that makes a difference. Yeah.

I mean, there's just so much. Lost, there's so much. Even if you, if you have survived a suicide attempt.

The time lost because you were there anyway is so profound like. There's so much loss. Mm.

you mentioned time. Time doesn't exist when you're in the slums, mate. Palm goes out the window.

It's instant, instant. There's no timescale. Yeah.

Sorry, I'm going to you. It, no, I mean, it's deep is important and it's like, it's, you know, like we even skirt around like naming suicide in. Like it's hard to say, right, it's hard to say.

That It It's hard to say that We might have these, no, it's I know my experiences have been that I've seen my life has been seen as less valuable. So the support that I've been offered is, is. Tick box or.

Not the support that is gonna help me get through. Yet I'm still here. And there is guilt about sometimes still being here when other people aren't.

And then you think, oh like, oh my God, like if someone hears this conversation, they're gonna go, oh yeah, it's Isaac again talking about racism. Like it don't exist, that you know the numbers don't tell us that alienated people experience suicidality differently. And I'm like, well, clearly it does.

Um yeah. Who's who? Who? Eugene, I mean, one of, one of the. Um, I think young people have a particularly tough.

At the moment cos the. Realms of escape are so much more limited. You know, er, before it was music, going out, you know, maybe you can go clubbing and stuff, you know, um.

The people used to go partying used to take poppers, used to take Speed, used to go Camden Palace, you know, where, where you know, Maximus whatever used to go out and people used to party and stuff, but now. They they can't do that, there's no realms of escape and they're forced into this kind of like. What am I going to do? How am I going to express myself, not even in the arts, you can't express yourself really fully.

You know? And then there's then there's expectation if you're black, the only thing to express yourself in art is to do reggae, hip hop, or carnival, yeah. You can't be a goth, you can't be a new romantic, you can't be a be a be anything else, but you can't even be a punk, you can't do anything individual, different from anyone else because now you're in another box, yeah? And If you're kind of like um. Trying to do something slightly different, slight slightly opportune from the norm, you're you're you're basically seen as um.

Being weird, yeah. Yeah. If you're black, you must like reggae, you must like reggae.

Yeah. Every black man likes reggae, don't they? Really, you know, I, I used to, I used to DJ years ago and. Someone defined me as a hip hop DJ.

Yeah, I told him no, actually I prefer, I'm a bit um different, I prefer um classical Korra. And they didn't know what I was talking about, you know, so I thought, right, alright, so that's you, that's your illusion broken, you know. But that's how you get typecast, you know.

And actually when I was DJing I was playing a lot of um. Latin music more than they figure that's what they wanted, so I played a lot of Latin music, but you know. Per se when you go to a bar, oh we're gonna play house hip hop, I go nah don't play that.

So you're um as an artist or or as a creative maker, yeah, I do my um 3D printing. There doesn't, they don't see too many melanated people doing 3D printing. I don't know why.

I have no idea why, but when I go to these conferences. I met a lot of melanated people doing 3D printing. Why aren't they going on YouTube? Why aren't they talking about, you know, African 3D printing? No one talks about it, it's like they're scared of a repercussions or something.

Especially in America. Worst place in the world I think to talk about that kind of thing, you know. You know, if you're an artist, obviously you're doing paintings and African archaeology, you know, and that's it.

But the art realm, you can't be a, you can't be a. African American glassblower. Can you? I've never heard of one.

I'm sure there's plenty. But you know you don't hear of them. So the outlets, you know, and in the UK I think it's even more limited outlets, you know.

The amount of many people going to university, coming out in the arts and doing stuff and other professions is quite good I think, but where are they? Are they getting those jobs? Yeah. Oh, are they? Yeah. And it's, it's.

You know, like when we make sense of it, is that. Systemic racism that starts at school is that. You experience pain differently, you learn differently.

You Talk differently so you're angry, like throughout this conversation we've had these moments. Yeah, my, my assertiveness is in doubt. Every time when I speak to the police, you know, which I, I inter when you ever interact with the, for instance, I went to police community, um, liaison thing and I got, I got, oh, you know, they were talking and.

They were talking about one or two APCs walking around, you know, going around, they're gonna add another APC. So I looked at them, I thought APC? Yeah? To me, and my lodge, that meant armoured personnel carrier. I said why are they putting in armoured personnel carriers around my estate and where I live around Brixton? What's going on? You know, it's not Northern Ireland.

Why do we need APCs? I got concerned, right? The the policeman opposite me, he started getting aggressive. And I started asking her questions. Then we figured out that APC.

I mean, cos they're using their code, a police constable. So the use of language is very important as well. You know.

Yeah. Yeah. Is there anything else you wanted to add before we come to the end of the time we have together? You've opened a can of worms, mate.

I'm sorry. Such a big, big thing you've got going on here. I don't want anyone to not be here because they've never got the right support.

Mhm. Yeah, absolutely. It's a big project, you've got a big project going on here and it needs to be um.

Thoroughly researched and investigated. Well, we don't, we, we know it needs to be, but it needs to be itemised and tick boxed, so to speak, yeah. You you need to be evidenced and I think that's something which you're really capable of.

Thank you. I mean, already there's been pushback around. This campaign me saying.

We're creating it, building the space, and it's like people are saying what about us? And I'm like. There, there is, yeah, yeah, that's right, yeah, there was a, there was a, there was, that's right. You said absolutely right.

Absolutely right, yeah, and I do have a chip on my shoulder and it's a bloody big log. It's actually it's a whole tree trunk. Absolutely right, yeah.

Sorry. We, we deserve our, we deserve our space too, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I think I, I, I, I believe. We've paid enough into the system to get just a tiny bit out to look after ourselves.

Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, I, I, I think, you know, we, we, we're not asking for a lot. I think, you know, we're asking for the same services that they that they.

We're safe Or others receive. No, it should be a fair and equal system. That's all.

We don't want to be treated any different, we want to be treated the same. And nothing's wrong with that. And I think it's a, it's just a shame that.

Sometimes we have to fight for it. When it's self-evident in front of us. I think that's a shame.

Mm. As with so many things, you know, as many of the people, we had to fight for certain things in the UK which we shouldn't have had to. Cos you've been denied them and that is.

In a civilised um. Country, I don't think we should be having to do that. Yeah, I agree.

So final words. Final words. um, anyway, I'm gonna suggest we stop recording now um and then we'll come back if we need to have another conversation.

Let me just pause. Um So we stopped recording and then you started talking, so I've turned it on because like um we were just talking about this subject is big. And you said black men are tough.

Yeah, super tough. That's why the suicide rate's so high. Among many native people, the suicide rate among black men or young men as well is high.

Higher the norm Yeah, females is high as well. Yeah. The interesting thing with females is females disappear.

Yeah. People commit suicide all kinds of ways, drug overdose, people, people go, go out and they get involved in fights. Yeah, cos they're trying to prove, prove something, yeah.

You know, people will challenge you in the, I've had young people challenge me in the streets. Yeah. Big old man like me, they challenge me.

They want to fight me. I'm looking at them, why would I wanna fight this old man for? I can't even run. Yeah, So yeah, yeah, it's um.

And the thing you said it is that then these are not getting reported, that was the thing that struck me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not getting reported, no it's not, it's not getting reported. You don't hear about it.

Yeah, nothing to see her, sir. Yeah. Well, we're changing that, we're building the space, suicide prevention.

Built without us fails us, so we're, we're changing that. Yeah, I hope, I hope that you know you manage to get something functional out of it and workable, you know. Has to be functional and workable, you know, and, and in this day and age.

I think it's important to get it out even quicker because you know you don't wanna wait 5 years, 10 years down the road and you just get kind of get there. No, there's no reason why it can't come out in 12 years, 18 months. Get it out.

Make it, make it into a trust and let it last. Let it keep on going on, building upon itself. Yeah.

I don't wanna hear about this kind of quango thing, you know, no, 8 months later it disappears, why? Because of lack of funding and, you know, and then, you know, we haven't got any people to man the phones or we haven't got anyone to, we don't have a base or an office and you know, the government policy has changed. No, it should be part of the infrastructure. Yeah.

That systemic racism that prevents us getting the support needs to change because our lives matter. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, we need, we need that level of equity.

Equality. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm not asking anything, just the equality, I'm not, I don't want anything else but the equality. Don't need anything else, just the equality. That should be enough for anyone.

Yeah. I, I don't wanna, I don't want to um. Go through this life.

Without having Equal rights or equal equality and being recognised for who I am. Yeah. You know, I don't care about anything else.

As long as you recognise me and say actually you wouldn't treated the same as everyone else, why? Because you're just like us. No, there's nothing special. Actually, I'd prefer if there was nothing special.

Yeah. When you're in trouble, you get the same help. Absolutely.

When you're in trouble, you get the same response. All of that stuff just, yeah. Mhm.

But I'm gonna suggest that we do pause here cos we're gonna chat for the rest of the night.