Jacqui - Building the Space: Amplifying Racialised Voices in Suicide Prevention

Morning and thank you for coming to speak to me about er this subject. Can I get you to introduce yourself? Good morning, Isaac. My name's Jackie Darlington. Jackie, tell me a little bit about you.

Oh gosh, what would you like to know? I'm a mother, a carer of a, Gentleman. Who's now, oh, he'll be 34. Um, And I've got an older son who's 36.

I've been caring for. Over 50 years. So I've dealt with.

Lots of things around caring and supporting people. Um, with various. Disabilities and mental health.

Tell me a little bit about what gives you joy in life. Sunshine, sunshine gives me joy at the moment, um. And proving to people that.

The impossible is possible. Mhm. Thank you.

That's beautiful. And I know that you're a very busy woman and you taking part in this speaks. that's, that's a very big commitment because I know how busy you are, uh, so thank you for wanting to be part of the change that we want to see, um, so, As a racialized person, do you feel like your experiences around mental health or suicide have been properly understood by people around you or services, and that might be your own experiences or the people you support or really like, yeah, you don't need to name particular people, but I know we've had this conversation.

Yeah, I think, um. Services are lacking. And People's understanding of our, Cultural needs, they expect everybody to be.

Um, Fitting into a square box, and we don't do that. We, you know, we are all different, we all show. Um, different types of mental health, um.

Issues from just being very low mood to, Suicidal, um, it's, it's just really difficult, and, It's, it's a shame that as a culture, we are not. Provided for like other people. What does that feel like, knowing that when you've had worries about suicide, that you know that there isn't the right culturally competent support out there, what, how does it feel? Well, I feel totally lost because I can't support the person I need to support.

I am. Constantly looking for avenues where to go down, what to do, what should, should we, um, should I contact someone else in another borough, do they get anything better in another borough, but to be honest, they don't, it's lacking all over the country, so nobody, Is Um Being treated isn't the right word, but nobody's been supported, the way that they should be supported, They automatically want to class a black person. As a mad black person.

Not the fact that they are going through some sort of trauma at the moment, and they just need help to get through whatever it is, and they need the support there, um. And sometimes as well, the medication that they give is not the right medication. I have been told.

On one particular occasion, that's. My blood pressure medication that I was on. Was not suitable for an Afro-Caribbean person.

And That then opened up a whole can of worms cos I'm then thinking, if my blood pressure medication isn't, isn't right, and that's, everybody's got blood pressure. And if they can't get that right, how are they going to get someone with with a mental health. Um, illness on the right medication.

Are they just gonna give you just the blanket, you know, like, go and take some paracetamol sort of attitude, you know. Yeah. That was really profound and thinking about what you were saying, some people will say, well, if you're saying no one in the country or no one gets the right support, why is it particularly difficult or why is it really important that we amplify the racialized person's voice in this? And that from your perspective is um.

You know, twofold, I, I think it's one, your own perspectives, two, the people you support. Why, why? There's the, there is a cultural thing that you just don't talk, in general, in fact, in general, most people don't want to talk about it because they don't understand it. But as a cultural thing, you just don't do it.

You know, you get on with it, you deal with it in-house, nobody needs to know, know your business and that sort of thing. But gone are those days, we need to speak up, we need to say things are. Right when they're right, and things are wrong when they're wrong, if we can't do that.

We will never be able to help those. That need The support Yeah. In the, in our communities.

Um, so profound. Yes. And thinking about.

Moving beyond that, um, have there been times where racism, discrimination or not feeling like you were heard or belong, affected uh the way that you've reached out um for support? Yeah. Yeah You Don't reach out. You have learned, you have learned.

To not say anything. Because people are not listening. Their ears might be open, but nothing's going in.

And Whatever you say is taken out of context. Um, you know, I, I know of someone that went to the doctors and said that they really are, really, really. Not even low, but they're, they're feeling really agitated and whatever.

And the doctor just sort of said, right. Talking books And he says What do you mean? I've come to you for help. Well, I'm recommending talking books.

I don't want to talk to anybody. I need help. And um.

In the end, he. Basically said to this. Cheap pay.

You know what? If you're not gonna help me, forget it. I'll go on the streets and find something. And people are resorting to self-medication.

Which is not right. Can I ask you, is there another thing beyond self-medication, because I know you have supported. I've been in spaces where you've talked about mental health first aid.

I've been in spaces where you've stood up and said that we are sharing our stories time and time again and it's. Traumatic Are are there times where. Suicide, the feelings of suicidality come in because.

Of the lack of trust or the lack of understanding. I think there are times that you feel. Oh That you can feel that way.

I Don't feel that way because I'm always worried about. Who's going to. Care for my son who's got disabilities.

So The moment I feel. Further than low mood, down, whatever, I tend to curl up in bed. So I'm recognising the signs now, and by recognising the signs I am able to, Pull myself up.

From going any further. Um, And reach out to someone, and sometimes it's just reaching out to someone else that also might have mental health problems, and the problem with that is, You are aware that they too have got mental health issues. And You are thinking.

Is what I am going to say going to make their. Problems worse, is it going to put more burden onto them, and you don't want to do that either. So you try to deal with it the best way you can.

On your own And does that come from a lack of trust in services or your experiences of people not responding? And is there. Discrimination and racism that comes out in in that, like, yeah. All of the things you've just said.

You know, lack of trust. The discrimination. They're not openly saying you're black and you should, you know, and this is what black people do.

But You, you can tell by the micro. Things that they do or they don't do. You know, the fact that they don't look at you when you're talking, the fact that they are, um.

Scrolling through. You know, when you, when you are talking to talking to a GP and I understand they've got to scroll through because the notes could be quite extensive, you know, quite a lot. But You need to turn away from looking at a computer screen.

And just look at the person. And look at what they're saying and see how they're saying it. Because I can say to you, I'm.

I'm copy. I feel this way, but I'm copy. But if you saw my face.

You would think something different. I mean you taught me this in some of the spaces we've been in that culturally, the connection with the face and eyes are so important, so if you're not looking at someone, how do you know, how do you connect and. And I mean that was a big lesson for me to learn, remember when I, cos I'll often will have two screens, I'll often, you know, my neuro divergence, you move around and stuff, and you said, you know, culturally we, we need to see the trust in each other's eyes.

Yeah. Yeah It's no good talking to someone. And there Looking out the window While you're having a conversation.

How rude is that? You know, it's just rude. Forget about whatever. Um, mental health issues I've got, we're talking rude.

And You know, the first time that happened to me, I thought, hm, OK. But we, I was on this call for over an hour, and every time I spoke, that's what that person did. Now, if I was at a point of feeling.

Um, unsteady. And uneasy. Someone doing that would then make me doubt myself.

And make me think I'm not worthy. And you, the moment you begin to feel that you are not worthy. Is the spiral.

Going down I'm sorry that's your experience, Jackie, I'm like, I mean. You're helping with this campaign because I know you're someone that always. Reminds us about psychological safety, mental health, all that kind of stuff, and you've experienced so much, and I know you've said that.

You're worried about your own self when you go so low. Can I ask about like friends and other people in your life that are from the global majority of racialized people? What's your experience around their experiences, cos I know you often advocate for a lot of carers and I know you do a lot of peer support. I know you're just a wonderful human being just supporting people across the world.

Um, I don't know about the world, but um, Yeah, I think most people feel exactly the same, no matter where they are in the country. The feeling is the same. I do understand some people cannot make eye contact because of their neurodiversity, and sometimes you do glance away and you do look down, but you, you, you go back to the face.

You go back Even if you, you're not looking at them in their eyes, you look across the shoulder, so it looks as if you're looking at them, and for those that I, that I'm supporting, they, they feel it even, More in a way, because I've learned how to deal with my emotions. And the way I feel. Some of the people I'm supporting.

And advocating for have not learned that skill. And how many? Of the people that are racialized people that you've supported over the years, have at some time said to you that they've been so low they haven't wanted to be here anymore. I try not to put a number on it.

It's, if I start putting a number on it, I start. Building A mountain if you like, or a a a mound or an obstacle, and I don't want to do that. If I don't put a number on it, we're all on the same level playing ground.

But can I, like, the invitation back in, is, would it be the majority of people that have at some point felt like this? Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. And these conversations, like, it's so hard for us to talk about it because there's so much heaviness and taboo in the subject, isn't there? There is, and I mean, we've got the Heaviness and taboo, as you said, that everybody suffers from.

But as a culture, as a um. Coming from the global majority. It's even more so, you know, people.

Just don't talk. You know, they, they, it's a bit like um. You don't even tell.

Anybody that. You know that you've lost your leg if you like, you know, because that's basically what it is when, when, Your mind's not working properly. You've lost a limb.

And there's no way you're gonna say to someone. Oh gosh, you know, I've had to keep so and so at home, or I've had to keep them whatever. Because Their mind isn't working properly.

And if you do say sorry, if you do say something, you word it in such a way that the person just thinks they're sick, they will not think of mental health. Mhm. If, if I, for instance, called you up today and you know I.

Have mental health challenges and I've often not wanted to be here and you, you know when I'm not good in a good place. Do you feel confident you would know where to get support for someone like me? Confidence, no. I would be knocking on various doors.

But to be able to get what you need, I don't feel confident about that, no. Mm. And your, your loved ones.

My loved ones, I feel very much the same. I, I'd be banging on doors and, And hopefully one of them. Will open and, and don't don't signpost me anywhere.

Make that contact. Make that contact for me because I am worried. About the person.

About the person I'm caring about, about, about the, the, the, the person um that's rung me up at the in being distressed. So if I'm making a call, say I've got this person, I've got this member, I've got this, whoever it is. I need help here.

I would want them to make all the calls to find me the right person to speak to. Oh. Yeah.

And just noticing that in this space. We're not explicitly naming this, but we both have experienced these things in our families, in ourselves, and. It's about creating.

You know, a better world, isn't it, like when we had this conversation, it's. Wow, very, very moving, Jackie, and thank you. So I wanted to kind of reflect on what you said.

So what would feeling generally safe, um listened to and cared for look like when it comes to suicide prevention, particularly for racialized communities, what would it really feel like? Um I think it, you know, we're all having problem, problems getting through to our GP's. We need a named, organisation, or telephone number that we can use. The GPs are overwhelmed with the amount of people they're looking after, and they're not experts in, Any fields they know enough.

To be able to get you the help, but they're not experts. So we would need a telephone number that's going to get us that expert help. Um, and make me feel safe.

So I can then reassure the person that I'm talking to that things will work out. I can't, I can't, I can't say to them, you're gonna be OK, but I can say things will work itself out. What about the role of like um culture, community, faith, identity, like what does, what does that play in, what, what role does that play in terms of.

That support people need. Um, I think the community, I think. During COVID, community literally pulled together.

Everybody was doing something to help the next person. And we need that again. We really need that back again.

The churches are doing fantastic stuff at the moment. They're opening their doors, 7 days, well, the doors are never shut anyway, but, You know, they're literally opening the doors, they're creating spaces for people, um, you know, where it is a mental health space, whether it is a knit and nutter group because women talk while they're, Knitting, whether it's um a men's group and they're playing darts, whether it's, you know, Whatever it is, the churches are really. Doing their best.

To pick up The slack. That's been left in the community. And thinking about this piece of work that I'm doing, which is amplifying the voices of racialized people in suicide prevention spaces, I wanted to explore with you a little bit about.

Um, what's something you wish people, organisations, or services understood better about suicide and racialized communities? I think I think it's going to be something along the lines of we are proud people. And it is hard for us to Accept. Support and the help.

It is hard for us to do that because we then feel that you are always going to be looking at us as, Someone that needs something all the time. Um, We are proud people, we, we stand on our own 2 ft, we, we don't ask for anything, you know, we support ourselves, and the most we will ask is probably from family members, and even then, You choose the member, you, the family member you're gonna go and speak to. And why don't, yeah, why are people scared, particularly when they're suicidal or even being bereaved by suicide.

Why? What is it about the, the suicide spaces that don't connect with you particularly? I think a lot of that is to do with how I was brought up. And to do with, um, You know, Being brought up in a Christian household and, You know, you do not take your own life and things like that, you know, and. Um, there, there is always a way out.

There is always another way. Um You know, it's like going down, going down this road and it's a dead end and you turn around and come back and you go down another one, it's a dead end and so, You know, And you keep going down these roads. But there's a, there's a time when you're going down them that you think, I can't do this no more.

I can't do this no more. But knowing that you are going to hurt. Someone If you took your own life.

Is what can keep most of us going. Is knowing that someone is going to miss you. If someone, if you've, if, if you've not got that person.

Or someone that will miss you, it is harder for you to bounce back from that. Deep, dark place that you're in. That love that comes from being loved, that thing that holds us, yeah.

Yeah. And can I ask you Why is it important for you to be in this campaign? Um I think it's important that. Our culture is.

Represented, I think it's important that, If you see, if you see one black person, then another black person will follow. Mm. So if there is a campaign that's going on that's not got anybody that looks like me, same colour as me, why would I want to do it? Why would I? But it's a great campaign.

Mm It's a great campaign, so we need people of our ethnicity. Mhm. And other Global majority ethnicities, to be in this, And to be leading the way so that others can follow our example.

Even if. You are not 100% yourself. Just by saying count me in.

And or let me know when it is, and remind me, and, you know, because. There's so much going on, you do, people do forget, but if you give them notice and you remind them and sort of say, you know, we really want you to come to come and join in this campaign, Then, um, you know, it, it will, it will matter. Cos I think you said to me that the reason you share your lived experiences cos you never want anyone else to go through what you've been through.

Yeah, that is so true. That is so true, and I mean something as simple as. And this is really nothing to do with mental health, but this is something that really annoyed me at the time.

Um, my son turned 20. I went to get his prescription. I then was told I needed to pay.

And I said, well, he can't afford to pay, he's not earning money, he will never be at a place where he's gonna earn money. And it says, well, That's what you need to do. So they said, well, go back to your doctors, tell them you need whatever form it was, because you cannot get this prescription unless you pay.

So I went back, asked for this forms, explained to the GP surgery what I wanted. Got the fall Filled it in Paid for the prescription by the way, but I did get the money back. Only for 12 months later.

Because I thought they'd send you a reminder to say your, your subscription is up or your payment is due or whatever. No 12 months later, in fact it was more than 12 months because I owed over £1000 in prescription fees. Mm And I then started to cry, because I'm like.

Where am I gonna get that money from, why am I, where, what, what, you know, and I couldn't find the words to speak. So I rang them up, and I'm crying and she says, OK then let's let's go through. Why you're on, you're using this plane for.

And It turns out he shouldn't be using this form in the first place. It, you know, it was just the fact that. My GP was still using the old prescription pads, and there wasn't the necessary tick box on the back.

For him to tick. So I went through, I went from having. A lovely calm morning to hitting, Lord knows what my blood pressure went to when I saw this bill.

And then I'm crying and trying to talk to her and she's like saying no, no Jackie, it's fine, we're gonna wipe it clean, we understand, we, and she was so lovely. You know, she, she was so lovely talking to me and calming me back down. And say no, that's fine, we understand if he has got.

And he is on, which was called Employment Support Allowance then. Um Then it's fine. You do not owe us any money.

It is fine. And I vowed then. I don't want anybody to go through what I went through.

So I then started a newsletter of all the little bits of information that I've picked up along the way. And I put it in the newsletter. And I used to email it out.

So is this story part of a newsletter you don't want other people to. Experience suicide feelings without. Knowing where to go.

Yeah. It will, it will be. I've not written it yet, but yeah.

No, I'm saying this story, you sharing your story, is this because you want other people not to go through. Yes. Yes.

Yeah, you need, you need to be able to know who to reach out to. So I wanted to just share something with you and I wanted your opinion on this. So thank you for always being.

A good friend and an ally to me, um, and always standing beside me and this is not an easy subject, you can see I'm not finding this easy. Um, but it's important. When I read the suicide prevention strategy, there were 4 mentions.

To uh race or ethnicity race in there. And it really upset me, and I thought, well, how do we build policies and procedures and practises if we're not even. In the government strategy and I, I had this moment where I thought I need to do something.

How do you, you feel hearing that like. If we are not. Part of the, a co-production group that is pulling together the strategy, Then how can they write about us? How can they? Um, advocate for us.

How can they meet our needs? And when you say I would, I would be worried. Yeah. And when you say co-production, what does that mean to you? Co-production it's just, it's a, it's a just a fancy word of people that has an interest in that topic in the sense of, You know, you're covering um.

Various global majority, so yes, you're covering the, The the Afro-Caribbean, you're covering the Asians, you're covering, Um, the travellers. You're covering The white as well, you, you know, you're covering everybody in together, all together, these are all people with lived experience, not just professionals. Although Personally, we are professionals because we know what we've been through.

And we know how to help. Someone else Does it surprise you that a government strategy or policy doesn't make explicit reference to. Or have many recommend so.

I'm not saying that. In the Reading that I've done, there were lots of recommendations about different groups of people. Does it surprise you that there are less or very few about the racialized experience? It doesn't surprise me because we're going down and and we we are starting a new journey.

And there's lots of things that need to be changed. The problem, the problem I think is the time it takes to. Put these things into motion.

And if there are groups of people in that strategy, that are referenced and their recommendations, do you think they will work for us if they're not built with us? It may work to some degree. But if they're not built with us, with someone like me. Or of my culture, my race.

There's no guarantee it's ever, ever gonna work efficiently. And what would you say to those policymakers, those people that are gonna be watching. This campaign, why this campaign is important.

Oh gosh, um, include us. We know what we need. We know what our friends and our family need, we know our community.

We know. Our culture Don't Don't judge us unless you've walked in our shoes. Yeah.

Is there anything else you would like to add, um, I've come to the end of what I'd like to ask you, but I'm just wondering if there's anything else like maybe um the question that I would end with is what keeps you going in moments where it's really difficult to keep going? Uh, um. I think it's my, my children. Although they're not children, children, they're adults now, but.

Um Yeah, they keep me going. And, you know, they're the first one that's gonna tell me. Things aren't right, they're the first ones that tell me.

You're never gonna be able to do that, mm. Or mm, you need help. You know, um.

And I think For everybody out there, find, if you can't, if you haven't got that sort of relationship with, Your children or your family. You can still have that relationship with a friend. It doesn't always have to be a family member.

Thank you, Jackie. I think that's a really lovely place to um bring our er conversation to a pause. Is that OK for you? Yeah.

Too brave, yeah, yeah. OK. It's a heavy subject.

It is, but if we don't talk about this, we might lose more people. Yeah. Yeah.

We might not be able to help someone move past. There are times when they're not feeling like being here. Mm.

Yeah. Oh, I know, I know, it's, it is. An area that is Never or rarely discussed.

You know, you've got on Tilly, you've got on um. Repeating myself, but you've got on telly things about dementia, things about cancer. Um, but nothing about mental health, or very little, I should say.

No. And I think that's because mental health is such a vast area. Um, Yeah.

It's too big, too big for anybody to handle on their own, if you like, and. And that's, that's what happens. You can't handle things on your own.

Yeah. And everyone that's going through distress that might not want to be here, or everyone that's been bereaved. Their stories matter like there is space.

And like we're building this space for all of these living experiences to make sure that like policies and procedures serve us well, you know. Yeah, we, what I think what, I think what you've said is right. We're laying the foundation and we need to get that foundation right.

If we aren't building a solid foundation. Everything else on it is gonna wobble. Yeah.

So you need people like you and me. And Fred and whoever else. To do that foundational work.

Yeah. Thank you, Jackie, I really appreciate your time and your. Just giving like you always give so much.

I'm gonna press pause there if that's OK. Thank you. So you, we paused and then you said something to me that you wanted to share, so.

Share Jacket. Yeah, this conversation has been really difficult, really difficult. Um, You know, I was deliberately trying not to mention people's names.

And An incident was playing in my head of. Um, hearing on the radio that someone had Died on the train line and I just broke down and cried, and cried and cried. Because I was convinced it was a particular person.

And I just sobbed, and it, I ended up having to ring. A friend Who between my sobbing. Was able to work out what I was trying to say because it was like, You know, sort of how you can, when you're sobbing, you can't get your words out.

And um. And she was able to ring that person. And Actually got hold of them.

And They then took my call. Well, it was just so, so hard and so. I don't know, I can't describe how I felt that day.

I really can't. And maybe it's, I'm, I'm not gonna describe how you felt, but it's maybe sometimes it feels like inevitable that when someone's in so much distress, sooner or later you're gonna hear that they're no longer here and you're waiting in fear for that call. Oh yes, yes.

Yes, it's um It's never far from my mind. Never far from my mind at all. Yeah.

So as we come to an end, I just wanted to say thank you, I'm around the rest of the day if you wanna reach out. This is gonna really help this campaign, and I'm just so humbled that you've taken the time to share with me because I think what you've shared is just so rich um and. Just heart that my heart hurts.

And thank you for asking me. You're welcome. That's what friends are for.

It Could end without song, couldn't they? That's what friends are for. We never talk about the joy in like being with each other and you know I could tell you. Oh Jackie, I just don't wanna be here today.

And I've told you that. I've told you that. I've said, Jackie, I just don't wanna be here today.

You know. Me, you know me, when I'm, when I'm there at 34567422, all, all hours of the night emailing and then I go silent for a couple of weeks, you know, there's something wrong. Yeah.

Yeah. But we still find enough. To keep going, keep going, yeah, yeah.

So thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. I'm gonna stop there cos I keep on forgetting to stop recording.