Julie - Building the Space: Amplifying Racialised Voices in Suicide Prevention

So first of all, right, thank you for finding the time to come and talk to me. So I just wanted to, for you to introduce yourself and tell me a little bit about you. OK, um, thanks for, um, having me. Um, introducing myself, uh, Lady Julie J.

Charles, CBE. Um, I have. Been doing a lot of work, uh, both voluntary and, uh, in a paid capacity for a number of years, over 40 years, I'm 60 now, and, uh, as somebody with lived experience, I've been working throughout the NHS and developing a lot of charities, um, and, Community organisations of the racialized communities, um, I'm also a mom.

Of 2, and a very proud grandmother, a nan of 5. I love the emphasis on nan, not grandmother. Absolutely, I'm too young to be a grandmother.

Yeah, and we, we go back some ways and I remember when you. First up your organisation. And how it was so needed and how, like you were laying the foundations for many of us, really.

Yeah, I was, I was, and uh, I'm really glad that you recognise that, um, Isaac, because. It was a tough journey being somebody that likes to Support community and my community and And to develop, wanting to, to, to help communities to develop, the word that was used back in those days was capacity building, which I couldn't bear, and the word project. Which I couldn't bear.

We were always seen as projects and uh, I've, for me, whatever I did with communities, I wanted that to be sustainable. And I wanted their lives to be sustainable in the way they developed themselves, so. I, I often look back now and feel quite proud.

That, um. I helped a lot of people. And I also had a lot to do with making sure that government and senior officials in the public sector, and that's right across housing, the criminal justice system.

Uh, health and social care, the mental health system, uh, made sure that officials understood us as a people. I mean, I owe a lot to you because I, when I used to see you operate and I used to think. One day I wanna get To be like a person like Julie, but I also have seen the wickedness that came from people towards you, but also the amount of energy and the effect that being you.

Had on you like I just, you, you were just, you never stopped. Yeah, I didn't and. I'm not the only one that kind of uh.

Does that, I think that for me, it was passion, it still is passion, but it was passion and the knowledge that something had to be done because something wasn't right. Something had to be done because something wasn't right, and so I, it did take its toll on my health, you know, as somebody that identifies as a disabled person, you know, I have lupus, I have heart disease and I have kidney disease, but on top of that, I've also got rapid cycling bipolar. So, The bipolar in itself, that kind of makes me rush and read a lot of policy and tear it apart and think, no, this, that, that, that, whereby it then takes its toll on my physical health, but I think my mental health has really suffered.

Because of the way I've been treated, trying to do the best for my communities, it's like, get her out of the way. To, yeah, that whole idea of like you're to, and I've, and I've heard people say this openly, like, you know, like. That that person's got too much power, they know too much.

There's a fear around how much knowledge you had because of all of the work that you did. And thinking about like, you know, I'm launching this campaign which I know you're gonna support and be a part of in the future. So I wanted to understand, as a racialized person, do you feel like your experiences around mental health.

And particularly around suicide have been properly understood by people around you or services. No, I can say that direct, um, quickly too, because, A lot of people wouldn't believe this, but just 3 years ago, I was homeless. Just me and my dog.

And, uh, I was homeless because I was, had to get away from an abuser, abusive husband. And I attempted suicide at the train station. Uh, all this time I had my CBE.

Um, I turned to services for support. And services kind of just Turned a blind eye because I didn't have no fixed abode. I had nowhere to live, no address.

Um, if I had an address, what was told to me, what I, I was told was that the assertive outreach team could come to see me and get a care plan in place. Um, I had no address at the time. I had to book into hotels and all of this, it, it caused me to have a breakdown, a total breakdown of, of me, and, and I could see it happening, and the reason I knew it was happening to me was because I could also see this vision of, of services just ignoring what I was saying, just being, just, And there's me thinking, how can you not understand me? I, I, I'm drowning here, you know, help me, and that cul cultivated in me.

Trying to take my life. Um, I'm so sorry, like, and what I, I mean, people do take their lives and bereavement is part of our, and you're, you're, I've seen you support people around this topic for years, but to hear you talk about all you've done and achieved and people ignored you. Mhm.

And I It, it hurts because I think that for all I've done and achieved, but how about the people that are trying to achieve, that haven't got quite where I am, that are in the same predicament as me, because I'm not the only one that has tried to take their own life, I'm not the only one that struggles, uh, with life and with services, but it, it does make me wonder why. Is it that? It's not understood. That it's frustrating that.

So if I'm not understood, I have a CBE, I have this, I have that, how about Jack and Jane up the road? Who don't have any of that and have no access to services, what happens to them? They slipped through the, the, the holes. Yeah. And do you ever think part of that was around your racial identity? Absolutely, absolutely.

I lived, you know, I lived in a predominantly white area. And um, I'd lived happily there for 33 years, happily there, but I found that every time I needed support, that happiness was pulled away because the services were just not there to fit into me. And I didn't fit into their services, and it was as if I was battling all the time to Be understood.

About what I felt I needed to survive. That's, that's, that's really painful to hear, but thank you for sharing and thinking about like, have there been times where. Racism, discrimination or not feeling like you belong, affected your mental health but also made it harder to reach out for support.

Yes, yeah. When, when you get to a stage that I have in my professional life and in my career, career. You kind of You, you, you kind of see the people of.

I'm just going to say this, people that are not from a racialized community. They, they just make it so difficult for you to, to even. I don't know, there's no space to do anything to, to grow as a person because you're always being put down, but they don't have to say to you something like you black so and so or get out of the, you know.

It's there, it's an underlying form of discrimination. And racism that is there, it's, it's, it's, it's as if a lot of services are built on that. And it's entrenched.

And that is scary. And I feel that personally, all the time. Because I feel other people's pain when they're trying to get through services, I feel that pain.

It's like The Eye rolling, the disrespect, the. And, and, and people say to me like, how do you know, like, how do you know like that was because of race, and I was like, sometimes you don't have the words to describe it, but I, I can tell you the feeling when someone looks through me like I'm not a human being. Yes, like you're not even there.

Yeah. Yeah, like you're not even there, not worthy. You know, I never forget, it was June 5th or June 6th, 20.

2002. And I was invited to a huge event at the Guildhall, and it was for Her Majesty's er golden. Jubilee.

My goodness, I got there, I, I was asked to be interviewed by, I think it was Trevor McDonald that was on the red carpet, but as I, I had to go through security, and I know that I looked the part, I looked lovely, I felt great, and I felt so proud of myself. And I don't know where this gentleman came from, but a gentleman, before I hit the red carpet and got through security, he said to me, Who are you, the cleaner? And I looked and I thought. Is he serious? And I just wasn't in the right place at the right time to say anything back to him.

But for him to say that. I thought I'm going in to to meet the Queen. And you've got cheek and I'm dressing my, my hat, my this, my that.

And that's how deep it gets. Yeah. And it, and it's like that.

And we've spoken about this before, like. You're living with mental health challenges is one thing, but then you've got the drip drip of racism that's coming in every day. And then when you turn into a place that's not built for you, or the first thing is we'll section you or we won't offer you talking therapies because it doesn't work for black people or people of racialized backgrounds.

How do you survive, like how do we survive? Do you know what? I think we're surviving on air. We're just breathing. We are breathing, but that breathing is strong.

It is strong, and I have to believe that. For me because. If I don't believe that.

And then I'll take my own life. So it's about breathing and breathing strong and showing people and the system that you're not gonna beat me so quickly, but it's always a fight. Everything is a fight.

And it causes trauma. trauma It The trauma that it causes it and the services are not there to deal with our trauma. That they're calls in.

Or, or we're labelled as problematic because of trauma, yeah. Yes, because of the trauma. Yeah.

Can I ask you, like, so what would feeling generally safe, um, listened to, cared for, look like for you, your community and the people that you support? Wow, what would that look like? I think that. It'd have to be something around. A care package that you don't know is there.

That you're so. Engrossed in your life and you're getting the support, but you don't know that. That care package is there because it comes as the norm.

It is part of you, and the reason that we can say it's part of us, a part of yourself, is because you've co-produced it and co-created your own package. And that only comes when people recognise those with the power, recognise personalization, recognise that. People have choices in their life and people have rights.

They have rights to live. I don't know if I've answered that. Yeah, you know, you have like just that whole thing around.

Look The feeling of being safe, listened to and cared for, and what that looks like, but really coming to that, like, thinking about like suicide prevention, like how do we make sure that we are looked after in around our feelings of suicide, around our feelings of bereavement, you know, like, yeah. Yeah. How do we might show That is a tough one.

That is tough because. I think that as a community. We often just look after each other, they think.

That we often look after each other. We're more than likely, some of us who live with lived experience of mental health. A lot of us won't be looked after by families because families don't understand.

A lot of families don't understand about mental health and when you're unwell. But I think that I I I find it hard to answer that because I don't want to answer for everybody. If that makes sense.

They're thinking about like you like you are someone that has knowledge, you're someone that has. Lived and breathed and walked this space, what is it that needs to be in place for racialized people to have really good suicide prevention support, like, I think it's got to be services that meet our needs, services from people like you, like me. That provide services, support people, uh, peer support, I, I think that that's quite a weak, weak word, the peer support bit.

I know why it's there, and I know people value it, and I value that it's there for some people it works for, however, some communities it doesn't. Work for, it's not strong enough, so I think that it's got to be policy also. Policy is a huge, huge area because, A lot of.

Public sector senior officials have their heads in policy. And they'll go word by word by word by policy and guidelines, and those policies and guidelines, if they, they are not. Developed by people from racialized communities, how are we going to feel that we have services that suit us, We won't, so it's got to be service provision that suits us, it's got to be psychiatric, Support that suits us, it's got to be psychotherapy, trauma supported care.

All of these things. It's different, but it's us. It's for us.

It's a racialized community. Yeah, and it's just like so interesting when you talk about policy, so I'm gonna just say that when, you know, I'm launching this campaign on my birthday, um, I. Was told I would not make it to the, the, the ripe old age I'm gonna make it to, um, and I've struggled with this myself, but when I was reading the the suicide strategy 23 to 28.

There are lots of groups and recommendations, but very few recommendations about the racialized experience. No. So how, yeah, tell me what you think about that.

I, I, I think that. The reason. That happens, and the reason they get away with that is because.

A lot of racialized communities, we don't. We don't involve ourselves in things like policy. We just, it's not that it's over our heads, we just get on with life.

We struggle every day, we just get on with that struggle. But there is a way through, but we cannot do that as a one person. We need to come together as a community.

At the same time, the voice, our voices need to vibrate into service provision, but it won't even, that's even a block. Which really does upset me sometimes because sometimes it feels like no matter what we do, it's never enough. It's just never enough, and so I think that We need to.

We just need. To be able to have our spaces, we need our space. I know it's not your job yet, but imagine I'm giving you the job of writing this strategy from 28 for the next 5 years.

What are the things that you know because you've lived, breathed and supported so many people that are racialized that needs to be in that strategy? Mhm. I think the criminal justice system is huge. I think that our youth.

Huge Um, things like. Direct payments, let's just say. A simple form of, of, of support should be available that a lot of us don't think, you know, or think what is a direct payment, is it a benefit? No.

But criminal justice, because a lot of black men are locked up. Yes, a lot of our black men are locked up because everyone they, they say is locked up is a criminal. But what is a criminal when.

It's constant, that the locking up of a black man all the time, and it, it falls on the child, children in that family, or it falls on the father or the mother that's left behind to To deal with. Instability in the family. And they wonder why there's no excuse for the killing that goes on and the stabbings, the shootings.

I know that, but we need to absolutely recognise that it comes from somewhere. It is happening, it's coming from somewhere, and we don't have our fathers, the, the fathers are locked away. Yeah, and I remember once listening to you talking about it in this way, that racism means that people are having these experiences where they are either.

In hospital, in prison, have a communication support need, whatever, then that affects the next generation, so we've just got this cycle of racism affecting mental health. Absolutely, absolutely, and. A lot of people.

In the criminal justice system, and within the mental health system, within the criminal justice system. Particularly. Women.

And I think that And I've That is just. It's just not on, the, the mental health system within the criminal justice system is a tough cookie to break. I know this because I've developed programmes.

To and it's messy. It's messy, so you have people that are coming out of prison with. Mental health.

And like I know we, we all have mental health, but there's good mental health and there's when you're unwell, but we have people that come out and some are unwell. And then there's no support, there's no housing, there's no GP, you're just given the money to get the bus ride or the train to where you've got to get to, you've just got the clothes on your back plus another outfit that someone might have sent you a tracksuit, you know, like all of that is, is, is messy and it shouldn't be. We need to.

Get people that are in prison, we need to mentor them, we need to get them supported, they need the support from trauma. And the same of our the racialized youth. They need support.

It's not just about locking them up when they get to 18, it's the right support they need. I'm thinking about like your own experiences of um. Suicide.

Mhm. When you shared that with people, like, how did like, did you like, cos I've had a done a few of these um conversations and people said that it was really apparent um that white peers were getting really different treatment from that they were getting. um and I'm obviously someone that is a dual heritage and closer to whiteness and I've had it.

Not so nasty, yeah, and you know, let's be honest, Julie, you are a very beautiful black woman, and I'm just wondering like how much of. That, did you notice, like how present was it? Oh, it was present. It was present.

It was present. It's, it's, it's been a, it's been a tough, tough journey. It's been a tough journey, like um.

Knowing that. You feel on edge, you feel like you're gonna tip off of earth. And people are still looking at you like, she looks lovely.

Look what she's wearing. Da di da di da, how can she? Have Bad or be unwell, um, it's really hard to kind of put into words because, At my time when I used to advise at Number 10 Downing Street, the Cabinet Office, Department of Health and Social Care, I I used to walk into offices, Isaac, and um. They used to be mainly want women.

Just staring at me. As if to say, who does she think she is? Walking through the corridor with Mr. hotshot minister, you know, and going in to have a meeting with him about mental health or about race or inequalities.

And um That really stayed with me for a long time because I used to think to myself, I'm working so hard to bring about change, so, so hard, and people should not feel afraid of that. Change. They should value that change is the next step into something.

Positive sometimes, you know, like. Yeah And this campaign is about building space for our stories. I I've had a few people in the last couple of days saying, what about other people's stories? Why are you just focusing on the racialized experience? And I wanted to ask you why we have to focus on that.

Well, we have to, we have to because it's not being focused on. It's not, we have many a. organisation, very small, small organisations of 4 or 5 people supporting another 1020 people.

We've lived experience of mental health and Who's going to support them if if if if we're not? And, and I, I'm gonna go back to that word about co-production, so I don't think. I never really saw. The stuff that you did as work, I, I always thought it's, that's your, it's been your life this trying to amplify the racialized experience from, yeah.

Back in the days when you were working down at Canning Town, like you know, you know, like all of the work you've done and still to have that experience. Um. Yeah, it's been, it's been an amazing journey.

It's been an amazing journey, but I'm glad that I've left a mark, and I've taken people with me. You know, I've taken people with me, people understand the, the, the struggle a bit more, every time you have a podcast. You've, you're making space for people to understand that struggle, and for service providers who could possibly be watching the podcasts, um, for them to, to think about change.

Because like I said, change isn't always bad. Change can be a good thing as long as people have the right support around them. Yeah.

I'm thinking about. The racialized experience and change, so what. Is something that you wish people, organisations, you've talked about hotshot ministers or services better understood about suicide and the racialized experience of suicide.

I think that there's a lack of understanding of Of where we're at, where we are at as a racialized community in here. Um, Very hard to explain, but I'm going to try. When, for instance, let's just say for instance, um.

If you have somebody who. Is, is unwell. And they're seen as mentally unstable, and they're going through a process of eliminating whether it's schizophrenia, whether it's this, whether it's that, whether it's that.

And then, You. Label them, you give them a label. That label will stick with that individual.

I have a label that, other than bipolar, that I am fighting at the moment to get rid of. You will never believe what it is, but I have one. I can tell you what it is.

Right, and. I, I, I know that is not me. That is not my label.

It's not me. It's when you ask too many questions and you push back, you get that label, right? Yes, yes, yes. And so I, I think that.

We Sorry, I've got my dog snoring here. Um, love a dog snore. Yeah, yeah.

I think that. We are a forgotten society, to be honest with you, um, psychiatrists, psychotherapists. Clinicians, doctors, GPs.

Hospitals. The Mental health hospitals, or be it your, your local hospital, all of these places need to, Have services in place and we don't want to be special, we're not asking for special services, we're asking for services, That meet our needs. Just like somebody who breaks their legs, needs a plaster on it, we need plasters, but our plasters and our healing is different, we may not need the plaster Paris.

You know that everyone can write on to show that you've broken a leg, we may not want to tell everybody we've broken a leg and that our heart is broken because we're living with, Mental health difficulties. I mean, what made me really Connect with something, and I've been connected with lots of things is that I was always told that you have to be stronger, and you have to look good in the world because if you don't look good you're gonna be judged and, and, and people always find it really hard when I'm like, I don't wanna be here today but I'm still, I'm still here. I'm still here.

Like people just don't get it, like that's a cultural thing. Yes, it is, yeah, and it's hard. Yeah.

It's hard to still be here. It is hard. Every hour can be hard.

For some people, it's every half an hour can be hard. But where are the services? Where are they? Where are the services, for goodness' sakes, you know that. Are going to eliminate.

Discriminatory practises. And racism because it's in your face. You know, it is in our face and.

As we As we talk now, where, you know, the the political. Landscape is changing. And it's getting scary.

So where does that leave us as a people? I don't know, I, I, you know, like we, we were joking the other day about like I need to move, etc. etc. And then I was thinking, where's it gonna be safe for me to move? Absolutely.

I don't feel safe at the moment. Because my counsel. So, you know, where I live, um, I'm not happy.

The the landscape is going to change. But what, what do I do? Go back to my own country? Which is here, which is the East End. I mean, that's funny because we are proper EastEnders, right? We are, and, and it, it, but I, I mean I, I've even since I've been doing.

The kind of anti-racism work, I've had emails saying go back to your country, I'm like, what, Stratford? Yeah, that's it. Yeah, I'm like, yeah, I've had people because. I'm born in Bow, East London, brought up in Bow, East London.

Born and bred, and I know I have a very strong Cockney accent, but I always get people asking me, where are you from? And when I say bo, it's like, no, but where are you from? Where are your parents from? You know, and That worries me a lot. Why do you need to know where the bleeding now I'm from? I'm from, I am from life. I'm breathing.

Yeah. And that thing that you said about like our communities being, finding it hard to reach out, I think when you're just like figuring out how to keep breathing, it's hard to then think, like, do the stuff that's important, like co-production or co-design, you know, it's hard. Absolutely.

Because even when you look at the co-production and co-creation and co-design, all of that. It's It's lovely, it's, it's refreshing, but it needs to also be done from our perspectives. And currently it's not, because there's not enough of us in that loop, putting our voices in and our views in there.

So, we're still on the sidelines to co-production. You, you know, when we're in these spaces and like obviously we're not the, the only 22 people that represent the whole of black and brown people. Absolutely.

But even trying to fix stuff, the racism comes out, right? Yes. Yes, it does. It's there, and it's scary.

Yeah. And and living in fear and scared, being scared clearly cannot be good for our mental health if we've got mental health challenges. No, it's not good.

It's not good at all, and. I'm glad that I can admit that. I get scared.

About having mental health and that, and that whenever I get unwell, I'm going into a system that could possibly not understand me. Because services are not set up for me. And that's scary for me.

If I'm sectioned and I'm injected. Um, I'm, I'm more likely to be injected as a black woman, as a black woman, yeah, yeah. And then you know what people say, that's just anecdotal, where's the evidence, and I'm like, well, every single.

Yeah, go into a mental health unit and seek for yourself, to spend a week there, sleep in the dormitories. You know, Yeah. So I've got one more question and then you might have some for me, is what helps you keep going even when you find it difficult? I think it's my grandchildren, to be honest with you, um.

Three of my grandchildren are dual heritage. And I Like to think that I am the glue. That keeps my family bonded.

They listen when I. I could be doing this podcast, let's say, for instance, and they'll get. The link and they'll listen to it.

And they learn from it. And so I'm pleased that I'm able to have grandchildren that are in their twenties. That Will understand one day, or beginning to understand now they need to protect themselves.

They need to protect themselves, and they need to understand that society. Within this structure that we're in isn't always kind. So to protect yourself.

Thinking about protecting oneself, what key, like what key messages would you like to leave people to think about in terms of, The, the experience of racialized people and suicide or racialized people and bereavement, because I know you've supported people around bereavement as well. Yeah. More clear messages.

You know, it's, it's, it's, it's an easy one, really. It really is, and I'm afraid to say it, but it's easy to look after each other. Just try, no matter how hard.

It gets because it is difficult to look after each other. It's difficult to look after oneself when one is unwell. Just keep trying and trying and breathe and because.

We're up against it. Went up against it. And I don't like sounding negative.

About Society. Can be very negative when it comes to racialized communities. Yeah.

And when it comes to bereavement. That is. A difficult one for me even because when my mum passed away, The trauma, the way she died, and the trauma I've carried for 10 years.

Has been incredible. Before then, I had my grandmother that was murdered, I had my close, close cousin that drowned, and they all were in the same house, all lived in the same place, so the trauma has gone back for me for some time, and my bereavement. For them has been ongoing and traumatic, and so I have an understanding.

Of trauma, but I also have a huge understanding of how bereavement and grieving, And just being bereft. As a people. And not even be respected too.

Because we show our grief in different ways. Yeah. Even our funerals are different.

Yeah. That's so true, and I mean, I suppose. This has been A beautiful experience, a heavy experience, and.

I hope someone. Like you, sees you talking and it helps them through that really bleak moment to just stay with us and keep breathing. I believe that will happen from this story, but I wanted to like talk about.

The joy of our communities as well, cos I, I think sometimes we focus on all the things that are broken. There's lots of stereotypes about us. Tell me about the joy of the work and the reason you do all the stuff that you do.

Oh, I've come across so many people, so many funny people. I learned so much from our elders, they make me laugh. They give me joke.

They make me laugh about their journey. To this country, Windrush. They're amazing.

How The juice, the goodness that comes out of our elders. It's so tasty. Everybody should have a bit.

And then you've got. I, uh, our, our youth, the music. It's it's, it's just.

It's amazing that the things that we bring. Forwards like Oliver, and we're offering what we have to offer. Is juicy.

You know, like. I've, I've, I've laughed a lot. I've laughed a lot with my people.

I have laughed a lot. And that has been during the time of grief too. I've laughed.

You know, and I, I, I want to give a shout out to a woman that uh. Has helped me when I've been bereft. Her name is Barbara Galloway.

And Barbara was the chair of one of my organisations for 25 years. And She kept us all going with her stories from coming from Jamaica. And they were positive stories.

She made everything. Come out positive in the end. And she said, Julie, just keep going, you're changing things.

You're changing things, and that's why I use the word change, not lightly, but with respect. Thank you Julie, I've got no more questions for you, you got any for me? I do. I do, I do.

I think that it, you know, it's not, I think I always say that I think that, um. You're doing some great, great work. And you've come so, so, so, so, so, so far.

That you're so deserving of your OB and you're deserving of even more than that. So I want to ask you, where does Isaac go next? Well, I don't know if you remember this, but. I met you When you were a busybody on the ward in Newham.

And I was told that I would never be anything, and I remember you coming onto the board in Nurham. And Giving people information, and I was like what? So we go back. That was, that was the 90s, right, babes? That was.

That was the 90s and I never knew that I had a future. I, I didn't wanna be here, spent a long time in that ward full of black men. Yeah.

White people got treated differently and, and I thought there's something wrong here, there's something really wrong, and I, and that's when I became aware of you and I, and I think our, our paths have crossed in various spaces. Absolutely. And people always told me that I would never be anything, and I always took that as, well I'm gonna prove you wrong.

Absolutely. And what next for me is that I. Wanna make sure that no one.

Has the experiences that I had, and I could have been so much more, if the right support would have been in place at the right time. The amount of fighting, the amount of energy, you, you know, like I live with a pain condition, I'm a disabled person, I live with a pain condition. Yeah.

I had a doctor tell me today, well, you can just do without the medication, I was like, why do I have to be in pain? Yeah To, to live. Yeah, no, in my head I'm thinking it's because you see our pain differently, you see our, our mental health differently. Yeah.

And then I'm like then gaslighting myself and I'm thinking, well, no, actually, you know, you're telling yourself this is racism. Stop it, Isaac, it's not racism, and then, and then I'm going, no, it is racism because I know racism, yeah. My friend called up their GP.

Bang bang bang bang bang bang, yeah, and I'm like, well I'm literally can't walk up and down the stairs, and. I'm not getting it. Yeah.

And you know like you said about the ABE the unkindness that I had. One, I didn't, I was like, should I take it, and I asked lots of my racialized people, take it because you're taking it for all of our experiences, right? like. But I've had a lot of pushback around who do you think you are? You're too big for your boots and all that kind of stuff, and I'm like, well, one of my high heels.

I can do high heels and boots, absolutely, absolutely. But Tim, I don't know Julie, where, where I'm going, but I'm going, I'm keep on breathing. You're breathing, you're breathing, and you're heading towards change, positive change, and just take people with you.

Yeah. Do not go out there on your own because it's dangerous. You've got my back, right? I have, I have.

Listen, I wanted to be Prime Minister, love. Listen, I seriously wanted to be, yeah, yeah, I, you'd be Prime Minister, I would probably want to be Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, so we're gonna be, yeah, yeah, we've gotta be on it. Yeah.

Chaka Uma, come on, help. Yeah, take care. Alright, let me just stop the recording there.