Humma -Understanding Anti-Racism in Co-Production Spaces: Centring the Voices of Racialised Individuals

You should get a notification um that asks you, um, you're to record, um, so first of all, like, uh, a little bit about yourself would be really useful. So could you tell me a little bit about who you are and what you do? Yeah, so I'm, I'm Homa, I'm A PhD student currently at UCL in my final year. Um, I look at kind of differences in experiences of psychosis across different ethnic groups and, um, yeah, kind of different experiences. So children, young people, people who migrate at different ages

Um, and yeah, I have lived experience of, sorry about that. Um, so I had a timer on for work that I was doing before, um. And I, yeah, I have lived experience from adolescence actually, but I, I started off using it in mental health, but I guess it's kind of become a bit less now as I've become a bit more ingrained in academia, which I don't really like, but yeah, it's just kind of how it's gone

Thank you for sharing a bit about yourself. Um, so this project's like really exploring how and what co-production feels like from the perspective of global majority individuals. So, like, can you tell me about your experience as someone from the global majority in relation to co-production? Yeah, sure

Um, so, I guess I kind of had, I wouldn't call it co-production because I find that, I guess, a lot of Things that we label as co-production and mental health research anyway in London at least, um, is not really co-production. So I'm a bit worried when I say I've done co-production. So I don't know if I ever have really, um, although I've tried

Um, but. Um, Yeah, I've kind of, I started off actually my career using my living experience and involvement capacity. Um, so, it was the question what it means to me or like what my experience is? Experience

Um, so yeah, so I started off. Um, work at Mcin Foundation, using my lived experience as a lived experience researcher. And I feel like that was probably the time when I used it the most because I felt very much aware that I was in the space because of my lived experience

Um, and so I felt like I kind of had to champion that. Um, I do feel like I had a lot more, like, face to face contact and, like, was working with a lot more people with lived experience and trying to really involve people. Um, so I stayed there for 3 years, and, yeah, I guess

Continue to use that kind of methods of involving people, and then I started my PhD at UCL um and really wanted to carry on doing that. I was really passionate about it. Um, I guess unfortunately the structures of academia haven't really enabled me to do that through barriers that

Kind of, you know, I guess as I've become more experienced as well, I'm kind of seen as a researcher rather than as someone with lived experience and a researcher. And it's hard to, like, I feel a very different. Um, I guess

I used to feel warm when I would tell people that and when I was working in the charity sector, um, and since I've been in academia, I feel like it kind of has gone the other way where it's like, oh. You know, maybe you're not a researcher, then, you know, it's like, even though I have done the things that would, like, tick those boxes. Um, so I worked with co-production collective as well, um, on the hearing checks project, and that was kind of really great cause that was my first year in academia, and I felt like, OK, maybe there is a space that I can continue doing this

And as I've kind of become more like, I guess, consumed by my PhD and not doing as much reproduction collective stuff, um, and not in that role anymore. I kind of moved away from it a bit, um, not through choice, but just through, yeah, I guess, systemic kind of ways that make me, make me go through a specific. Route of research

We'll come on to that, so can I ask you like. As someone that is a researcher, as someone that has a lived experience, what does co-production personally mean to you? Um, High production to me. Is working with people, for people where I guess I, I don't like separating our involvement and co-production, because I do feel like co-production is involvement throughout

So it's, we're working together. I'm involved at a research and you're involved as someone experience. We're all involved in the project to co-produce it

Um, and for me, it's, um, you know, working together, using our strengths, our weaknesses, to kind of come together for a mutual understanding and a mutual kind of outcome that we want from a specific research project. Um, and I very much like to see it as a way of life, actually, because I see, um, Myself kind of trying to implement. Co-production kind of morals across my life in the political space, in other spaces that like, you know, kind of moving away from party politics, moving more towards kind of the people have the power, um, kind of allowing people to have the voice of people who are directly affected by it

I mean, we see it now, don't we, in terms of the, the rights that have been going on, and we often hear, like from MPs and politicians and these kind of even in the left, um, spaces, it's like hearing from people who Know about politics. Actually we never hear from people on the ground who are directly affected by it. What about the people who have had, who have been housed in those hotels that have been burnt down, or by the people who were, who do regularly visit that mosque that's been burnt down

Um, and so I do kind of, I know people try to, try to like keep the personal and their, um, Yeah, like work life separate. But I do feel like when you're passionate about their production, it kind of is like applied throughout everything you're passionate about through your life as well. it's interesting that we often say bring all of yourself to co-production

And then when it's stuff around racism or stuff around any sort of is, then we say, Well, that's not for this space. It's, yeah, you're so right. Can I ask you, like, as a, um, global majority woman, I don't know how you would describe yourself

Would you describe yourself as a, like, how would you like me to kind of. Yeah, I guess, um, a South Asian Muslim woman of colour, hijabi. Even like dark skinned South Asian, cause I feel like even that adds like a different dimension to people who might, yeah, experience privilege in the space depending on their skin colour as well

Yeah, absolutely. So as a South Asian woman, um, could you tell me about like. Your experience of co-production, like I'm, I'm really interested in exploring how racism and race plays out in co-production spaces

Um, yeah, sorry, what was the question? Like, what's your experience of, um, how racism and race play out co-production spaces? Mm. Um, I, I think in co-production spaces, um, I think for me personally, Um, so I speak about from a personal perspective and also then from the professional perspective and trying to envelop that throughout like, um, having the experience advisory panel or like. Yeah, in my research project because it is about ethnic minority people

So I do have people who are from, uh, you know, um, the majority and people of colour in my project. Um, I think I, I'm very much aware of like how. How that there are like, I guess, power hierarchies present in all those spaces

Um, and I feel like it's something that takes up a lot of my, um, brain energy in those spaces, trying to understand those dynamics, for example, like on a Zoom call, when you might have people of colour or like people kind of expressing their experience through of race through a specific lens. Um, and the way they might be perceived or the way even people react in A Zoom chat, you might see that, I don't know, even their like physical expressions be different or like, you know, people kind of wince a bit and be, you know, a bit hesitant about going to that detail, um. I do think I think there's a very big difference in, in co-production places in the academic space, which I guess is kind of like where my head is going to right now

But I do think in co-production spaces, there are people who are kind of like, especially in co-production collector when I've been in these spaces where they're kind of, you know, really putting the effort in to kind of make sure that those voices are being heard and they're, when there's like barriers that we're trying to, um, get past them as much as possible. Um, I do think sometimes. You know, we're so consumed by making sure we're doing co-production properly that the race lens isn't really given enough attention to, and it's kind of a second thought

Um, which is maybe, I guess, the stage we might be in co-production and maybe when we kind of find out all the co-production things race might come in. But I do feel like there's an importance in making sure that it all happens in parallel. So whilst we're trying to make co-production perfect, you know, we're also making sure that we're, um, Yeah, like, uh, addressing race and racism at the same time rather than like, you know, oh no, actually now this is like an afterthought

Can I ask you, like, in your experience of doing co-production. How explicit is. Um, the historical context or racism or, um, imperialism, all those kind of things discussed like two people

Do you think, I, I hear a lot of people saying, oh, we should, you know, uh, you know, we should be anti-racist, but I'm like, do people discuss what that actually means? Do people understand some of the kind of, um, legacies, the historical legacies in I don't. Yeah, it's funny you say that because I was reading. Um, hostile environment by Maya Goodfellow last night, and she talked a bit about how, you know, that there's this big gap in how we're brought up in this country, specifically in the UK, and what we learn about the history of, like, colonialism in this country

And we kind of, and a lot of our attitudes are actually based on, like, the way we kind of first experienced race. And as a, when you're not a person of colour, you might just first experience it and be like, Someone might say, oh, these people in this country, they're taking on our jobs. And that's all, that's just what you think of it, because there's a gap in the kind of education we have in school

Um, and I think that actually translates into co-production because I know there's this gap in people understanding why, why is there a big South Asian community? Like, why is there a big Bangladesh community in Tower Hamlets, for example? Why is there a big Pakistani community in Bradford, you know, like, why is that? Like, what has been the history behind that? And I feel like the gap in The kind of education we receive in the UK and obviously, it's different if you don't, you know, receive your education in the UK. But in my experience, that has been, you know, people I've worked with have been like people who, uh, researchers or have been co-producing and people who don't have that knowledge. Um, honestly, it's quite tiring having to con continue to explain it

Like, you know, like, I, I find myself having to do quite a bit of like, why I ended up here or like what my family's migration journey was. Um, but I feel like If we did have that knowledge a bit more, or like people were a bit more understanding of like the legacies of, um, colonialism and like why there is this big migrant, migrant community in the UK, I feel like there would be, that would foster a safer space for people and people would be a bit more understanding. And maybe like non-people of colour might be a bit more

I don't, I won't, don't wanna say feel guilty, but also feel a bit more understanding of like their role in it, like maybe their family's role or like why their families might have been complicit in it. And um Yeah, I don't know if that answers your question, but I just wanted to also add, like, I think, um, actually, I saw this, I was thinking about this the other day in terms of like when George Floyd was murdered in 2020, and, you know, people were like, I'm committing to anti-racism. I'm gonna do this, that

And then that was kind of like in this kind of space where we were all kind of online because it was COVID and people could just commit to that online on their Twitter page or post a black box, right? But now we're starting to do things in person. We're coming back to these online spaces and being fostered. Like, there was very little of that, and it's very noticeable in the last couple of weeks when we've experienced this kind of, um, uptick in far right violence and people being like, I just don't understand what's happening

Like I just can't believe it. And like, in my head, I'm like, well, it actually, it should have been like, you understood what was going on in 2020, and this is like a, and also a product of that. An extension of that

But like, clearly there, there has been a gap in, like, what we committed to in, in anti-racism in 2020. And now there's like lack of understanding of why there's far right violence. Like, I don't know, do people, did people think that in 2020, we kind of solved everything to do with racism, and now this is like, oh, no, it's happening again, because the people who live there, it's like a very real reality of it happening on a regular basis, you know? It, it, yeah, I, I don't

It, it didn't take the murder of a black man or didn't take COVID or it didn't take the rights to remind me of the everyday nature of racism. Right. Yeah, I, and I'm wondering about

You, you said something that really intrigued me around the difference between you in academic spaces and you in co-production spaces, and there seemed to be a separation. Um We as co-producers often find ourselves in um academic spaces or spaces led by academics. Like, what's your experience in those spaces around understanding race and, In co-produced spaces you mean or like in academic or like joint spaces? Yeah, no, you mentioned academia a lot wondering about like you as an academic, like what's your experience been, um, as a South Asian brown woman, you know, what what has been your experience? Um, in all honesty, it's been really bad, um

It's been like triggering to the extent that I never imagined it when I started my PhD and Um, it's literally been I guess in the person that I am, I find myself like, constantly addressing it, constantly bringing it up. But the emotional toll that that has is like, I can't explain like how it makes me feel. And there's been spaces that have, like, there's been, you know, hangouts for people of colour to come and try and describe their experiences and what's happening

And in doing that, There's been You know, um, invalidation, you know, lack of acceptance, just, you know, kind of being like, you know, well, I'm not accepting that, you know, because I'm a woman, not as a woman of colour, but just because they hold that title of woman and they feel that they're a marginalised person because of that. Um, and the pain and like trauma that I feel like that has on not just myself, but also people of colour, colleagues who are also academics is, it's just in a, um, like, Unimaginable and um There, there's been time, there's been like quite a lot of times throughout the PhD actually that I've kind of brought things up. So, like I mentioned before, you know, for example, like when it's Eve, for example, like holding a conference, and this is in my 3 years at UCL so far, this has happened at least 3 times, and E is twice a year

So that's 50%. Of Eids that I've experienced in my PhD, there's been something on the day of Eve that I've had to make the decision. Am I going to celebrate, uh, like, religious festival and meet my family? Or am I going to prioritise my career and go to this thing where I've been asked to do a talk or even just go to attend? And it's making that decision is like that constant exposure to like microaggression is like, where, what do I pick? And like, it differs from time to time

I'm like, you know what, I'm gonna go and celebrate my family. And then at other times I'm like, actually, this would be really great for my career. There's no right answer, but it's like, I shouldn't have to put in the space to have to answer, ask, answer that question in the first place

Um, and like, the amount of times I've done it, and I'm not saying it has never been addressed, and there's almost always a commitment to do better, but then the next time it's something else that pops up. So it's like, maybe an, a specific group could commit to doing it. But this is a very systemic issue that isn't being addressed

And it's, I don't think it's. Enough for it to be actually addressed with the individuals who are doing this. It's actually a systemic thing that isn't happening, that's allowing these, you know, issues to occur

It just kind of baffles me, like how much it, like, I know it's not on purpose, and I feel like seeing it's on purpose would be, it would make me be seen as like, oh, you know, you're overthinking it. It can't be, you know, it's one year of the year. It must just be chance

But 50% of the time. Just feel like, you know, there's 365 days of the year. Like, how there isn't conferences don't happen that often, or especially, especially like internal things

So what are the chances that something happens on that day? I know it's not on purpose, but like something in my brain is like, is it on purpose, you know? Or they're just assuming that there's no Muslims who it's gonna affect, you know, that they should change the date. I don't know. I, I don't know if I'm overthinking it, but that's just what it makes me feel like

I mean, I, I just imagine we chose the 25th of December to hold. Um, the conference, like, what uproar would there be around, people having to choose between a religious, a national holiday, a moment where people would expect to be with their families. Um, I think it's very, it's, it's a lot deeper, isn't it? Like you said, microaggressions, but

Microaggressions, constant microaggressions like that's a, a, a really hard thing to experience like 50% of your, can I ask you like um. There's been a lot of reference to we need to have difficult conversations about racism and race in co-production. And I'm wondering like what your view is, like what kind of conversations do you think we need to have and how do we ensure people are safe from a um global majority perspective

Um, I'm not sure because I feel like All the conversations that need to be had have been had. And like, I'm quite conscious that there's a lot of repeating like. I think spaces I get invited to quite often

I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot and it's like. I kind of think, why do I have to keep repeating the same thing in different spaces? Why isn't there a wider implementation? And I don't feel like a lot of the things people say in these spaces, like for myself and my peers, and I might be generalising here, but I don't feel like people say anything new. I feel like a lot of it is common sense that we should have understood or have implemented by now

Um, and I, you know, it's like how many workshops, how many Zoom calls, how many, um, EDI hangouts are we gonna have for people to just understand how to treat us all like humans and how to treat us all equally, you know? Um, I mean, we're not, you know, we, we can. I, it seems like, um, I'm speaking from an academic space, and, and maybe actually from a co-production space as well, because we do, there are attempts to do co-production academia, but these researchers, like, are able to kind of train in the most complex statistical software, complex methods, and, you know, execute that perfectly and have, you know, these big articles, um, published in The Lancet and these big journals. But then when it comes to like the fundamental basis of equality and diversity and Just understanding, you know, how people experience things differently

It feels like, it feels like they just cannot comprehend that people experience the world differently to them. And that is really like striking to me in that, again, it's like maybe you're overthinking it, but surely, like, you know, if you're, you're, we're all very intelligent and we're all very, you know, um, We have skills in this area. But it kind of feels like maybe these things are then just tick boxes because you're able to train and like, you know, do this independent work and be able to achieve outcomes elsewhere

But it's when you have to recruit or make things nicer for people of colour or from people from global majority. And that is like the most difficult thing. It's like, you know, solving an equation that's unsolvable

Um, and that to me is kind of where it, it really hits home of like, are we just kind of being, being used as props to kind of tick a box or is this actually being Um, implemented into practise. Can I ask you, oops my dog. OK

Just give me one sec, sorry my door. OK. Can I ask you, like, it's interesting and it's so true, um, about the complexity of the things that we can do

And the simplicity of getting it right that we don't do. So can I ask you what role do you think our white peers play in doing this work? So you, you said that we all reflected during COVID that. And lots of people make statements out about being anti-racism or racist, um, like what do our white peers need to do to ensure that we don't have this experience that make us feel burnt out or

What do they need? I think. I'm not sure. I don't think

There's anything new that they need to do that they're not aware of, um. Because, you know, I don't know, I feel like I kind of moved beyond the Um, you know, I like thinking about various holidays, and thinking about the emotional toll that this will have. I feel like this

It's all things that they should be doing anyway as like line managers, you know. Um, yeah, like research needs, for example, for example. Um, I think maybe if we're thinking about, like, you know, people in the same stage as you

So, you know, not thinking about the hierarchical, but like people who are parallel in similar roles to you, I think maybe like a different approach to like how we navigate these experiences. So. Um, You know, like Thinking about how people who are in the same role as you might having to do more work

Or might be, um, you know, experiencing more emotional, like, discomfort from a specific topic than to the next. Um, I think a lot of the burden ends up being put on us like in terms of like, you know, running these groups or even in terms of doing this research projects like Um, and I don't actually know what the right answer is, because, you know, in some sense, it's like we should be having people who are affected by doing the research. Often the people who hold the ground are people who are white and kind of have you doing the work and then they kind of tick it off

And even then, there's this kind of like, is this acceptable enough to you? And like, how much control do you have? Um, and I think obviously in a co-production space, you'd expect it to be that, you know, there'd be this equal role of like, if Um, you know, there's consensus and that's great, but if not, then this white pier wouldn't have more of a say over the next or like whether what's acceptable if they hold the run. But in an academic space, there is that, and there is this very much of like, oh, you know, maybe turn this down a bit. But like, why are we, like, why, why can't we let people just express the way they they're experiencing things? I, I've experienced it a lot in terms of like, you know, why it appears being like, oh, you know, I, I think, um, I don't think they would have meant it this way, or, um, you know, I don't think they're like that because they have done this before

And I think it, I think there is a gap in them. That there needs to be some kind of um Understanding that just because you didn't mean things a specific way or just because you didn't intend things to be a specific way, there is a likability and a suitability that is apparent in terms of like, what's acceptable. And there needs to be this kind of sitting with the discomfort and being like, is it because I don't want it to look as bad as it is? Or is it because I'm inherently like, Dis disagreement, this isn't a good piece of work, you know? Like, there, there's, and there's a difference in like, how much are we turning it down because you think the personal colours overreacting or you're seeing things a different way

And I really see it in like peers who are specifically black, who are often told, like, oh, you know, you haven't done this properly, or you're overreacting, or maybe we should turn this down a bit. Um, Because the funder might not like it, or, you know, I mean, we can, they'd say like, we can talk about this in the group, but like when we write it up for a paper, we shouldn't put this in. But why? Like, you know, then it does become taken issue because you've got this person of colour who is very much expressing how they feel, but you're not allowing them to publish that in the paper, like, or publish that in the findings or let the funder know that

Um. I, I don't know. I feel like it's too deep rooted to be like this is what white parents should be doing

Um, I don't actually know, like, yeah, there, there's. I think For me at the moment there's a sense I feel like they know what they should be doing, um. And it it just so happens that there's times when they have they

Do it, but it's time limited. I think, I don't think there's a limit on the time that they have to be uncomfortable, have to keep reassessing their kind of positionality and their privilege. Um, can I ask you, like, you, you talked about the emotional impact, and I'm wondering like

How do you keep on doing the stuff you're doing with all of this stuff that's happening um to black and brown researchers, to black and brown co-producers? Mm. I guess I guess it's hard because Like, it, I guess the easy thing would be, you know, I don't think that anything's gonna change and I'm gonna leave you. But then there is this like, um, kind of sense of like

Awareness that wherever you go, this will be the case, right? There isn't going to be a space where I can do research and this is like explicitly. You know, anti-racist or explicitly fine for people. Um, and in a way, I feel like when you leave these spaces, they just become worse and they, all these things are just kind of reiterated and they just continue to happen

And I think I'm very much aware of like the power that academia holds in people's lives in terms of the research that gets published. And if, like, I can commit to like, continue to be in the space and like, What doing what I can do to hold people accountable to create change or hope to create change it needs, then maybe that's my kind of um I guess gift to the world. But I do think it's difficult, like the emotional toll that it has

Um, and I don't know if this will happen to me in the future, but there are people who end up leaving because they don't feel they can continue in this space without becoming very seriously unwell. And I, I do have to constantly assess how I'm feeling personally, professionally, and then like how my mental health is being affected by this. And there are times when I experienced burnout, but I don't

At the moment, I don't feel like there's spaces where I can like in a supervision context even really express that because when I have done so. Um, the only kind of suggestion has been, oh, maybe you should take time out, maybe you should take a period of leave. And for me, it's like that pushes me back and, and that keeps me in this space for a longer time, when actually this thing that is, um, Inflicting harm on me actually

Is what I want to get over and done with, so I have a bit more autonomy and power in how I navigate this. Um, so I kind of guess I kind of go back and forth quite a bit, and I don't know if there ever become a time when I'm like, I actually can't exist in this space anymore. But whilst I'm here, I do feel like when these things do happen, I can't just be like, Oh, you know, I'm not gonna say anything

Or I'm not going to make these people aware because maybe it won't lead to change now, but maybe in a couple of years' time or maybe 1020 years down the line, there will be a maybe a light bulb moment when they'll be like, oh yeah, I remember this person said this to me, maybe I should have implemented that then, or maybe I should have made that change then. Um, and, and I think in an academic space, the reality is that. You know, it's multifaceted that it's not just a workplace

It's a place where a lot of people from our communities, children and young people come. This is the first place they come after they leave school. And so seeing people like me and seeing people of colour in these spaces exist and hopefully we thrive and teach them, maybe gives them a bit of hope for the world that they'll have to experience going forward

And that's why I feel like in a different place of work, I probably would have left by now. But in academia, you know, there's the kind of opportunities to teach, to Um, you know, have that space to teach in an alternative way where the future of today, which is the children who come and learn in these institutions, might see the world in a different way. And you might, you know, you might change the way a future far right fascists, um, You might convert a future far right fascist into someone who's a bit more understanding and a bit more aware of the people around them

And for me, that is really The kind of hope that I carry with me as I navigate this space on a daily basis. We started off this conversation. Talking about, and I think it's important to recognise that we've recently had um

The attempted murder of racialized people in hotels, we've had open um expressions of Islamophobia, xenophobia, racism. Like, how has that affected you? Like, I, I, I think I heard that you said you weren't surprised, um, but how has it affected you, like, what have, how have people responded to you in this time where it's much more present for some of our white peers? Mhm. Um, so I guess there's kind of two levels to it

So, personal and professional. So in the personal sense, I was quite shocked that like, like I said, I, I bring these things up quite often, that my, none of my kind of supervision team reached out to me at all. Um, and I did a tweet about it, um, you know, saying, oh, it's quite shocking to come into the office after this happened over the weekend

And everyone just kind of sat in silence, you know, it's kind of an eerie atmosphere. And Feeling very hyper aware of who I am in this space and looking over my shoulder constantly on the way into the office. Um, and actually, um, shockingly, my supervisor saw the tweet and reached out to me afterwards, but openly admitted in the email that they were only reaching out after seeing my tweet

Um, and I probably could have guessed if they reached out, but the fact that they openly admitted that, it kind of hurt a bit more. And I don't know if I should have been a bit more hurt or not, or like the fact that they were being honest, that, you know, they were reaching out. But for me, there's a level of care that a supervisor should have when these things happen and a commitment to check that you're OK

Um, and I, and, you know, there was a very, there was a A very obvious fact that there had been an email chain round sent round to my entire team because they all sent an email within half an hour of each other, basically saying the same thing, but they were checking in on me. Um, and it wasn't like it was the first time they'd got to their emails. It was like 2 days after when, you know, the first one admitted they saw my tweet

And that was quite, I didn't reply to any of them and then after I was like maybe I should reply because they have reached out. But there was a kind of sense of anger for me in terms of the fact that You know, I would have had to reply and say, you know, thank you for reaching out, and I wasn't going to be like, actually, I'm really, really pissed off that you've done this and like you owe me a level of care that you haven't enacted in a time when I've needed it the most actually. um

But the fact that I would have had to perform um a dance in a way and been like, you know, thank you for the email. I'm fine, you know, I'm doing all the checks. Um, I'm looking over my shoulder and blah blah blah

Um, and so that was the kind of personal experience. And then, and then I had a chat with someone in the office who, um, you know, was like, Oh, you know, in London, um, I, you know, they were saying, you know, the news is kind of an expression, uh, an exaggeration of what's happening because they hadn't seen anything happening in London. And I, they were a white man

Um, and that was kind of like, actually like, OK, maybe you haven't visibly seen it, but have you thought about the emotional toll this has had on people of colour in London? And like, not the fact that there's been these riots, but, you know, any person who might hold these beliefs, um, and, um, you know, secretly and is now more emboldened to act on that and how that makes people feel. Um, and, you know, I, I kind of posed a series of rhetoric rhetorical questions for them to kind of, for them to come to the conclusion that, oh, you know, I'm saying that as a white man. Maybe I'm thinking about my privilege too much

Maybe I'm, uh, yeah, too much. That was kind of the personal thing. And I, and then, you know, friends reached out and stuff and Um, uh, I'm looking in the sense that I have a good, like, nice community around me, even in the academic space of people who reached out, who appears, not like, you know, supervisor or anything

So that was nice. Um, and then in the professional context, I felt really lost in that, I, my PhD and like my research is on the experiences of migrants with psychosis. And, um, we work on looking at Kind of social determinants and Um, it, that really hit in the sense that, you know, you kind of For blood, sweat, and tears and to kind of finding out these things and understanding the kind of social deprivation that exists in society, that means that migrants go on to develop psychosis and what happens in that kind of journey

Um. And then when things like this happen, you kind of think, isn't it really obvious, actually, why are we, like, why are we even doing this work? Like, isn't it really obvious what why people go on to experience severe mental health conditions and all this money's been funnelled into us finding the cause and blah, blah, blah, and using specific methods that have been developed by eugenicists who, you know, to, um, you know, did all this work on kind of, um, racial supremacy. Um, but actually, if we just look around as it's very obvious what is going on

Um, you know, migrants in hotels and they're being burnt down, of course, that's gonna. You know, be a huge emotional distress. And of course, there'll be things in society that exacerbate their mental health to the extent where they go on to develop psychosis

And we see, I think we see these, we, we see on the, in the headlines all the time, whether it's whether there's rights or not. You know, how this affects migrants specifically. Um, but as someone who works in that space, it kind of felt so like deafening, these people, like I said before, who have looked at, you know, the, the, the experiences of migrants and, um, the risk of psychosis using statistical methods and quantitative methods and blah, blah, blah, who were just silent, who didn't tweet a single thing, who didn't say a single thing to me, who didn't, you know, Who have basically

Made a living off looking at the experiences of migrants. And that, I guess, was the most deep part because it wasn't like I could split apart my personal professional, because my professional was a professional career is based on the experience of these migrants who are the victims in what's going on right now. Um, So, yeah, I don't know if I answered the question, kind of went up on a tangent

I did and my head just went off into, into like this. This space of the irony of um and I hope I'm using the right word of having. This conversation in an institution that has such strong links to eugenics, the irony of like people

Making careers off of understanding the trauma of people that have migrated and experienced racism and all sorts of things. Just was very profound and as someone that has, you know, I've experienced psychosis myself, it just made me think, yeah, where, where were people when? Mm. Yeah

Where were people when we needed them to stand up and be counted? And I think in a, in, in a co-production space, actually, it's, you know, when we're working with these people, our relationships don't just exist in that realm of the project, like. You might think, OK, we're working people with lived experience of, uh, psychosis and migration in this project, and it's great. And it's, you know, they're, they're, um, working with us on the project and we're trying to enact the kind of morals and values of co-production

But what about beyond that when they look, when these, when there's hotels being burned down on the migrants in, and these researchers who have constantly reiterated how much they care about you and how much they value your experience? are silent when this is going on. You know, I mean, I think that really speaks to what co-production is. It's not just in the timeline of this project

Your commitment to the research that you're doing and to the people who help you and work with extends beyond the project. And they look at your Twitter page, they look at your professional page, they look at your reactions to these things, and they think, well, maybe they did actually only want me for that project, regardless of how much they felt involved and how much they felt that they were able to collaborate and provide meaningful input. When you're silent on these issues, it's very clear to these people that co-production only exists in the realm of them ticking a box for funder for this project that had all these like rainbows and sunshines on the grant proposal, but actually outside of that, you're not seeing anything

Like, you know, for me, it's like if you're committed to this research and you're really interested in it, that is a personal thing. And I, I really dislike it when people say, you're the person, the professional is separate because it's not. Like, when you're in, especially in this area of research, and you talk about mental health and psychosis and migrants, it's, it's a political thing as much as it is personal and as much as it is professional, because the migrant

Narrative is criticised across the board. And so you have to speak out whether you're existing in an institution, whether you're working for a charity, whether you're, you know, working in a migrant organisation, like you just have to constantly reiterate where you stand on it, because you can't just not because you're staying neutral or whatever because if you're thinking about. You know, if you're really passionate or really committed to, um, the well-being of migrants, that also is included in that is you coming out of your comfort zone as a white professor, male, um, and saying, you know, all, even if you just want to start your research, just saying all the work we've done shows that this is horrific and this is gonna have bad consequences because it is like the people who we, that we're doing research on now

Who are we we're kind of, um, you know, I guess you're writing papers on are the kind of people who who if they'd migrated to this country now, would be the people in the hotels that that are being burnt down. And we're seeing that they suffer from very severe consequences that lead them to really horrific social experience in this country, but also employment, education, um. Mental health outcome, everything is so drastically impacted

Um, and I think that's where I kind of, you know, I, I feel different compared to others because they might be working on a specific part of the brain, or like, you know, specific big data sets. But for me, it's cause it's such a personal thing, and I use my lived experience in that and try and advocate for others as well. It feels like everything is just so combined that I can't just go home and switch off

I'm thinking about this all the time. I'm like always trying to read outside of just academic papers to understand whether I'm not being funnelled into this, and there's a very big like um sense of. Guilt for me in that

Am I being, or that question for me in that, am I ending up in this hole of like, academia where all I'm reading is like research papers who have been watered down, and I'm not actually reading about the blogs that people might have come write written about their experiences or books that might have come out or Other things that are happening outside of academia. And so for me, it's like a constant energy drain of like, guilt, am I doing right by my community? Am I doing right by others? Am I trying to, um, do this work just as as much as I can? Uh, I think that's where race comes in to it the most for me in that I'm just constantly exerting myself in both professional and personal conversations, and then, um, through materials and resources to make sure I'm Really, you know, getting the right narrative across. Thank you so much for like being so open and honest

um, I'm gonna suggest that we pause there, um if that's OK. um, let me stop the recording, um.